Dan & Phil Part 22: #rubberupfordan

[phamnotof]

if they're being genuine or fanservicey.

Can't fanservice be genuine? I don't think they are doing anything not-genuine or in any way nefarious.

Personally, I'd say no, fanservice is not "genuine". The definition of fanservice (according to wikipedia) is "material in a work of fiction or in a fictional series which is intentionally added to please the audience." Obviously, aren't fictional, but the point still stands. To me, fanservice can't be genuine/sincere because it's something done to intentionally please an audience (But, to everything else you said!!)

I'm gonna second dizzy's confusion here. If I tell my friend her hair looks nice today, I'm doing it intentionally to please her. Does that make it disgenuine? Cause I could have just kept the thought to myself, too, but I choose to tell her cause I know it's going to please her.

Of course, Deppy & the fans are a different dymanic, but the argument that something can't be done with an intention to please without losing sincerity just doesn't sit right with me.

And I also wanna say that fictionality matters, too. The idea of fanservice was brought up because of storytelling being overshaddowed by easy-to-please shiny, sexual or otherwise desired tibids. Things added into a story that don't serve a storytelling purpose & just aim to, as your defintion says, please. So it has a lot of negative connotations for that reason & is often used as a degratory term.

But Dan and Phil make YT videos. There's not a narrative they need to focus on, no character arcs that need attention. The sell their lives, personalities and experiences. That's the nature of their job. Twitter's, in the end, a promotion tool for that. A way to keep in touch, keep people interested, take care of the creator/audience relationship that is essential for what they do.

And yeah. All of it is their job. All of it either directly makes them money or helps make it indirectly. Is that where the feeling of disingenuity comes from? Money? Because yeah, that's how it works, but I guess I just feel like something absolutely can be mutally beneficial & remain genuine.

[uglyamerican]

But Dan and Phil make YT videos. There's not a narrative they need to focus on, no character arcs that need attention. The sell their lives, personalities and experiences. That's the nature of their job. Twitter's, in the end, a promotion tool for that. A way to keep in touch, keep people interested, take care of the creator/audience relationship that is essential for what they do.

And yeah. All of it is their job. All of it either directly makes them money or helps make it indirectly. Is that where the feeling of disingenuity comes from? Money? Because yeah, that's how it works, but I guess I just feel like something absolutely can be mutally beneficial & remain genuine.

Yes. All of this. ^

[tymyky]

I don't usually post here because you guys always cover the topic completely and I have nothing more to contribute. But now after reading the discussion about fanservice I just got some flashbacks to times when the whole phandom was so happy when they posted some photo together, that they are finally comfortable with sharing more with fans (I even remember being excited when Dan @replied Phil on twitter, because that didn't happen very often) And now we get the pictures so often it's even called fanservice. Times have changed.
OK, see you in 6 months.

[flarequake]

About the radio show - in the Creative Process panel at Summer in the City on Sunday, Jack said about creativity being stifled, almost in passing this is all the info I have to share, "that's why everyone quit" referring to the Internet Takeover. So that kinda answers and raises questions, I guess - Dan and Phil might still do something with BBC R1 as they were said to still be in the family, but perhaps not in the same format and also without other YouTubers taking turns alongside them

Whaaat. Were you there or is there a video? Because I have to call bullshit (on Jack, not you!). In a liveshow Emma commented on the show ending and didn't say anything about having a choice in the matter, she even said she hoped she (and Luke lol) would be back in some form in the future but it was out of her hands. I think Jack's just trying to give a better spin to being let go. We knew the other YTers were out (speculation was they didn't get as many listeners/viewers as the monthly D&P show) but lol at them deciding that for themselves. Sure Jan. I mean Jack.

(But FYI it was already confirmed Internet Takeover is done completely. If D&P do come back, it won't be to that).

After the grossness this weekend regarding J&D being generally giant whiny babies, I would take anything either one of them says with an elephant-sized grain of salt. But hey maybe that's just me.

You might both be right, all I know is what he said (I was there, I haven't seen any videos or clips of the panels yet).

Really enjoying the debate about fanservice, though have little to add beyond wanting them to be happy with what they're sharing and I'd be very surprised if they're not. tymyky makes a good point too. It seems they're constantly walking a fine line.

Re Felix's vid, with things like Phil's tumblr posts e.g. not coming to the Radio 1 building anymore, and Dan, a while into US tatinof, saying please no more signs as they block people's view, they're very good at saying these things firmly, but kindly.

[coffeepenguin]

Hi guys, long time lurker, first time poster, english is not my first language, yadda yadda

I just couldn't help myself after confusedpanda raised a totally valid point about only Deppy posts mentioning each other being (sometimes) viewed as fanservice, and then all of you guys' posts, and I've actually been thinking a lot about all of this before, so.

I basically grew up being in the j-pop fandom, so I know a lot about fanservice from real people, because sometimes there's like nothing but fanservice in what those bands are doing and you learn to distinguish flat out "manager-san said we have to do it" fanservice from "real interactions that are just a bit played up because we are comfortable with our fans" fanservice (disclaimer: I'm talking about Johnny's here and I've only experienced it from a western's point of view, I know I'm making generalisations, but I don't want to get into too much details, so I apologise if someone finds it offensive, that is not and never has been my intention). But generally everyone is very upfront about what they want and what they get: fans want to see two cute boys kissing and, at the same time, see them happily married to a woman some time later, so the two cute boys fake a kiss and then just after that talk about their type of girl.

I'm talking about this, because what, I think, the issue is with Deppy is that they themselves don't often take a clear stand on things they are doing being fanservice or not, so we don't know how to react. It's the same with Dan's mentions of male attraction - is he serious or is he being relatable? What I call fanservice - I agree with dizzy, the question is would they do it if not only for the audience's entertainment? It's a thing Dan often says btw, like, I'm only doing this because you like to see my suffering. Like, reading/writing fanfiction about themselves is clearly fanservice. Those (you know which) bits of TATINOF are clearly fanservice and it's underlined by their reaction (albeit everything is cleverly explained, I give them that). But what about PINOF, for example?

Aside from this, I think, a lot of things depend on what you think of their relationship, too. If you only see them as platonic friends, 2009 interactions are clearly fanservice, for example (they might be even if Deppy were not platonic friends at the time, mind you), so nothing "prevents" them from continuing it now. If you see them as something else, the issue is infinitely more complicated. But what I won't agree with is that they don't think (and overthink) what they post on social media: come on, Mr Daniel I-Spend-Hours-Choosing-An-Instagram-Filter Howell doesn't think about everything he posts? Mr & Mr Anything-Embarassing-From-Your-Past-You-Just-Delete do not think? Pfft (long first post, sorry)

[alittledizzy]

I'm talking about this, because what, I think, the issue is with Deppy is that they themselves don't often take a clear stand on things they are doing being fanservice or not, so we don't know how to react. It's the same with Dan's mentions of male attraction - is he serious or is he being relatable? What I call fanservice - I agree with dizzy, the question is would they do it if not only for the audience's entertainment? It's a thing Dan often says btw, like, I'm only doing this because you like to see my suffering. Like, reading/writing fanfiction about themselves is clearly fanservice. Those (you know which) bits of TATINOF are clearly fanservice and it's underlined by their reaction (albeit everything is cleverly explained, I give them that). But what about PINOF, for example?

I definitely separate in my mind what they do as fanservice (TATINOF is a strong example) and what they do that they decide to share. I think videos are a gray area for me because at the end of the day career youtubers are making videos to get fans to watch and make money, so by that logic every video they make is fanservice. They wouldn't be sitting around playing endless hours of Sims without it being for fans.

Aside from this, I think, a lot of things depend on what you think of their relationship, too. If you only see them as platonic friends, 2009 interactions are clearly fanservice, for example (they might be even if Deppy were not platonic friends at the time, mind you), so nothing "prevents" them from continuing it now. If you see them as something else, the issue is infinitely more complicated. But what I won't agree with is that they don't think (and overthink) what they post on social media: come on, Mr Daniel I-Spend-Hours-Choosing-An-Instagram-Filter Howell doesn't think about everything he posts? Mr & Mr Anything-Embarassing-From-Your-Past-You-Just-Delete do not think? Pfft (long first post, sorry)

I definitely agree with the fact that they do consider what they post on social media, and perspective plays a difference. But ultimately that comes down to how fans take something, not how Dan and Phil intend it.

[bluewho]

To reassess based on this new definition: If we are going to define fanservice as something inherently dishonest I wouldn’t call anything Dan and Phil do fanservice.

Dan and Phil have a genuine friendship, and genuine affection for each other. They genuinely live together. They genuinely work together. They genuinely chose to go on tour together. Even when given the option to be apart (have separate rooms or socialise at parties) they still choose to be together.

Therefore for me anything they do to sell or promote their relationship, Phan™, cannot be fanservice, because it is based on this genuine core of friendship and affection.
In this light a picture of them hanging out with chopsticks posted to twitter is not fanservice, because it’s not dishonest. They are genuinely hanging out together messing around with chopsticks. Fans are just responding with approval towards this instance of genuine friendship, and towards their genuine friendship in general.

There is no ‘fanservice’ because there is no dishonesty. They are just genuinely sappy gits.

This is not comparable to two cute straight J-pop boys kissing solely to please fans – that is dishonest and therefore fanservice.

I agree Dan and Phil overthink things, and make an effort to post things fans will react to – but that doesn’t mean those things aren’t genuine. Do you really think Dan Howell, who wore hats for most of his liveshows because he was so self-conscious about his hair, who used to obsessively fiddle with it because he was so worried about it, would post a picture of his curly hair to thousands on twitter and leave the house with curly hair if he thought it looked crap? No, he genuinely thought it looked good. It was a genuine action. Not fanservice.

If you believe that their friendship has ever been romantic at any point, then there is also a core of honesty behind anything they do that seems to imply a romantic relationship also - so that would also not be 'fanservice' as it would not be dishonest - it would be based on this honest core of truth that they had/have a romantic relationship.

This is different to two straight boys kissing who do not and never have had a romantic relationship - where there would be no truth to the idea of them in a romantic relationship, therefore the act would be fanservice as it is dishonest.

[spider]

 bluewho  

The question of what is fanservice depends on the definition of fanservice. A lot of the debate about fanservice used different definitions so there is confusion and a little arguing. Some other people already said the same thing but only explained their definition partially.

If you think fanservice is all fake and created only to please fans without any truth then Deppy are not doing fanservice. This is the definition bluewho used. Whatever kind of relationship you think they have is a real relationship so by this definition it's impossible for Deppy to be only doing fanservice.

If you think fanservice is anything posted for fans' benefit even if it comes from truth like something Deppy would do anyway then Deppy are doing fanservice. That's my definition and by that definition almost everything they do publicly is fanservice.

That question is separate from another question. Is fanservice bad? By the 'fanservice is all fake' definition then it is 'bad' if fakeness is 'bad' to you. By the 'fanservice does not have to be fake' definition then fanservice is not bad. That's my opinion.

To explain fanservice more use Japhan for example. Dan and Phil decided to go to Japan for themselves because they always wanted to go. Their trip was not fanservice. While they were in Japan they made a DITL video and posted pictures and short videos for fans. Those were fanservice by my definition. They were shared for fans' benefit so that makes them fanservice. That does not mean they were fake or morally wrong. They came from real moments Deppy had together and when Deppy chose to share them it also became a 'service' for 'fans'.

[uglyamerican]

 
To explain fanservice more use Japhan for example. Dan and Phil decided to go to Japan for themselves because they always wanted to go. Their trip was not fanservice. While they were in Japan they made a DITL video and posted pictures and short videos for fans. Those were fanservice by my definition. They were shared for fans' benefit so that makes them fanservice. That does not mean they were fake or morally wrong. They came from real moments Deppy had together and when Deppy chose to share them it also became a 'service' for 'fans'.

I agree conceptually with your definition of fanservice, but it the case of the Japan trip, the trip was specifically undertaken for the writing of TABINOF (and certainly will be a expense writeoff against the proceeds from the book.) Sure they've always wanted to travel to Japan (that *shockingly* enticed other YTer's to copy their example,) but you could logically construe that every photo or video that came from that trip was fanservice simply because it was a business trip to create content for their audience.

[uglyamerican]

So, has anyone heard or read reports back from the Aus tour about how Mr. Howell's voice is holding up? I'm curious if he has wrecked it yet / fully recovered from his pneumonia.

[coffeepenguin]

yay definitions!

Dan and Phil have a genuine friendship, and genuine affection for each other. They genuinely live together. They genuinely work together. They genuinely chose to go on tour together. Even when given the option to be apart (have separate rooms or socialise at parties) they still choose to be together.

Therefore for me anything they do to sell or promote their relationship, Phan™, cannot be fanservice, because it is based on this genuine core of friendship and affection.

There is no ‘fanservice’ because there is no dishonesty. They are just genuinely sappy gits.

This is not comparable to two cute straight J-pop boys kissing solely to please fans – that is dishonest and therefore fanservice.

I just wanted to clarify, because I'm afraid that I didn't express myself very well. I didn't compare Dan and Phil to j-pop idols because I think they're doing the same thing, like you said, solely to please fans. I don't think so, I actually find the absence of what may be called physical fanservice between them very telling something that makes their verbal and other interactions even more genuine. But I wanted to give that example because people were talking about fanservice in fiction which is very different from "fanservice" from real people. Then again, are they real people or are they characters Dan and Phil, with their "world" being described in TABINOF? Isn't that what people are talking about when complaining about personas? It seems to be somewhat blurry with the youtubers in general, this distinction real person/character, but not only, talk about Kanye (sorry) or John Barrowman, or even previously Stephen Colbert, if you are into american comedy scene. With Deppy, the thing is also that they've reconstructed their narrative(s) several times, so their fans understandably may get confused about what is "considered" real and what not at a given moment. (I don't personally think they are really playing a character all the time, you'd go mad, and then they are quite young still - but Phil is doing more of that, for example, this has been noticed here, I'd say)


I do also agree with all the points about any public activities being considered fanservice, if you only mean "for the audience", but to me that seems to be too broad a deifinition I'd talk about maintaining public interest in that case or something. And I don't think that fanservice in a stricter sens is bad or dishonest either, like I said, it's when everybody knows what they are getting, even if you know that what you're getting is fiction otherwise it's called queerbating (or ship baiting)

[bluewho]

I just wanted to clarify, because I'm afraid that I didn't express myself very well. I didn't compare Dan and Phil to j-pop idols because I think they're doing the same thing, like you said, solely to please fans.

Don't worry I realized you weren't drawing a parallel I only used it because I found it a helpful example to illustrate my point about dishonest/honest behaviors 'for fans', and it seemed particularly relevant for discussing phan and 'real people fanservice'. It was a very helpful example for you to bring into the discussion

I do also agree with all the points about any public activities being considered fanservice, if you only mean "for the audience", but to me that seems to be too broad a deifinition

yes, I agree

[pearshaped34]

I agree conceptually with your definition of fanservice, but it the case of the Japan trip, the trip was specifically undertaken for the writing of TABINOF (and certainly will be a expense writeoff against the proceeds from the book.) Sure they've always wanted to travel to Japan (that *shockingly* enticed other YTer's to copy their example,) but you could logically construe that every photo or video that came from that trip was fanservice simply because it was a business trip to create content for their audience.

I don't know if I'd agree the trip to Japan was specifically for TABINOF as it's not like the few pages on Japan in there were somehow essential to the book or that they would have been short on material to write about without it. And as for them using it as an expense write-off for the potential book profits their company accounts up until around that time are now online (and in this thread somewhere) so we can say with complete certainty they could comfortably afford to go without the book proceeds factoring into it. Considering they had already mentioned really wanting to go to Japan and could very easily afford to go I very much doubt they only went because they figured they'd make enough money on the book to justify it. They could financially justify it anyway.

If they'd been a complete social media blackout to obtain exclusive material for the book then I'd maybe get this viewpoint it was about TABINOF but they probably shared more from Japan for free then they have from any other trip they have undertaken. If they were classing the trip as a book expense surely they'd have made it a book exclusive.


As many others have brought up in this thread already though fanservice in relation to a youtuber is such a ridiculously difficult thing to define and discuss because what makes them famous is essentially sharing elements of their life and personality with the internet which kind of means the majority of their day to day work is "fanservice". They are sharing what the fans want and the fans are eating it up and that how they make their money.
Of course they could not share at all or mostly share stuff they know the fans don't want to see but this would eventually have a knock on effect on their livelihoods.

I personally agree with bluewhos point of view (great post ) in the sense that as I believe Dan and Phil's friendship is genuine and they are together because that where they want to be and not because they see £ signs in each others eyes I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt in most cases that most of what they do is a reflection of their genuine friendship and not them setting up artificial situations to please fans. Maybe it's a naive viewpoint.

[spider]

I don't know if I'd agree the trip to Japan was specifically for TABINOF as it's not like the few pages on Japan in there were somehow essential to the book or that they would have been short on material to write about without it. And as for them using it as an expense write-off for the potential book profits their company accounts up until around that time are now online (and in this thread somewhere) so we can say with complete certainty they could comfortably afford to go without the book proceeds factoring into it. Considering they had already mentioned really wanting to go to Japan and could very easily afford to go I very much doubt they only went because they figured they'd make enough money on the book to justify it. They could financially justify it anyway.

If they'd been a complete social media blackout to obtain exclusive material for the book then I'd maybe get this viewpoint it was about TABINOF but they probably shared more from Japan for free then they have from any other trip they have undertaken. If they were classing the trip as a book expense surely they'd have made it a book exclusive.

uglyamerican do you have a source for saying Japan was a business trip? Is it just your speculation? It doesn't make logical sense unlike the lack of sharing during U.S. TATINOF.

[uglyamerican]

uglyamerican do you have a source for saying Japan was a business trip? Is it just your speculation? It doesn't make logical sense unlike the lack of sharing during U.S. TATINOF.

Dan explained the situation before. I cannot remember exactly where I saw it, whether it was a ls or some other video. Somehow the topic of Japan came up, but Phil took it another step and actually booked the trip. In any event, the travel story's inclusion in the book would certainly qualify the trip as a business expense (i.e. write-off) under US tax code.

OT: We really need an index to all D&P material e v e r m a d e. I'll see if I can find it, but if anyone else remembers, please chime in.

[alittledizzy]

uglyamerican do you have a source for saying Japan was a business trip? Is it just your speculation? It doesn't make logical sense unlike the lack of sharing during U.S. TATINOF.

Dan explained the situation before. I cannot remember exactly where I saw it, whether it was a ls or some other video. Somehow the topic of Japan came up, but Phil took it another step and actually booked the trip. In any event, the travel story's inclusion in the book would certainly qualify the trip as a business expense (i.e. write-off) under US tax code.

OT: We really need an index to all D&P material e v e r m a d e. I'll see if I can find it, but if anyone else remembers, please chime in.

I think this is the clip you mean but it's a big stretch to me to take a two line exchange from that whole video and deduce that the Japan was a business trip.

[spider]

In any event, the travel story's inclusion in the book would certainly qualify the trip as a business expense (i.e. write-off) under US tax code.

They live in England.

[fancybum]

I was staying out of this because fanservice/bait discussions drive me up the wall but let's do this real quick:
The liveshow where they said they were going to Japan:

3:40 - Dan: I was like, "I feel like I want to go on holiday", and Phil was like, "We have friends in Tokyo, I want to go to Japan." And I was like, "Yeah, that would be fun." And Phil went, "Ok, I'm booking it."
Phil: And I actually did it. I'm never that spontaneous. [..] I was like, "I'm doing it, I want to go! We're never going to go if we don't just do it. So we're going to Japan".

4:40 - Dan: Everybody is telling us to vlog it. We don't want to vlog the whole thing, because we want it to be a holiday. But we will, we definitely will, we have to take them with us.
Phil: We'll film something.

4:55 - Dan: You guys want to see us in Japan, so we'll definitely do something.
Phil: You will see some of us in Japan.

From the book itself:

D: Going to Japan is something we've always talked about doing, so halfway through writing this very book we thought 'Hey! Why don't we randomly go to Japan right now and say it was for the book?'

This was a trip for the two of them to celebrate finishing up their book, and to have a holiday to enjoy themselves. Nowhere do they indicate the trip was "specifically undertaken for the writing of TABINOF". If they swung getting it partly covered as a business expense by including a small part of their personal holiday in their book, then that's just smart planning. But to call the whole trip fanservice is the biggest stretch. They're aware the audience wanted to see it so they conceded to that demand by doing a DITL (one day out of a weeks-long holiday), fine let's file that video under fanservice (...along with every other video they have or will ever do). But the whole trip? They took their dream vacation together, one they mentioned wanting over several years, just to please the fans. Right, m'kay. That's taking cynicism to a whole new level.

[uglyamerican]

In any event, the travel story's inclusion in the book would certainly qualify the trip as a business expense (i.e. write-off) under US tax code.

They live in England.

Accounting principles are basically the same in western economies. An cost incurred (travel and lodging) as part of producing or manufacturing a product or service (a book in this case) is expensable. Pretty basic stuff really, first year tax accountancy and is ordinary.

[uglyamerican]

OK, this discussion is getting out of hand. They included the Japan trip as part of the material of the book, thus it qualifies as a deductible expense. This is how business works. They can deduct the trip, and I'm sure their tax advisors would agree.

Fan service: I'm not sure why everybody's so upset about concept of "fan service" and what qualifies as "fan service." D&P publishes (to publish implies to making something "public" btw) their videos and photos to publicly accessible accounts, so that shows they want everyone - and most if not all of "everyone" are their fans or colleagues - to see them. I'm also absolutely sure they either use private settings for other material, or have entirely separate accounts for things they don't want to share. There is nothing wrong or unusual about that - it makes sense.

[bluewho]

From the book itself:

D: Going to Japan is something we've always talked about doing, so halfway through writing this very book we thought 'Hey! Why don't we randomly go to Japan right now and say it was for the book?'

[blueapple_x]

Lol.

[uglyamerican]

Nowhere do they indicate the trip was "specifically undertaken for the writing of TABINOF". If they swung getting it partly covered as a business expense by including a small part of their personal holiday in their book, then that's just smart planning. But to call the whole trip fanservice....

OK, I concede that D&P did take personal time on the trip (which is not unusual for business trips - you just figure what percentage was business.) But I'd use to book and the videos as backup to prove to auditors the legitimacy of any deduction

The trip did provide for a good deal of material in different formats / media, so call it whatever you like, but their audience / "fans" sure dug it.

[alittledizzy]

Lol.

I feel like I've been following the saga of this phone all day.

Amusing stuff, though. I wasn't actually expecting Dan to reply.

[fancybum]

OK, I concede that D&P did take personal time on the trip (which is not unusual for business trips - you just figure what percentage was business.) But I'd use to book and the videos as backup to prove to auditors the legitimacy of any deduction

7-10% business vs. 90-93% vacay, yes I suppose we can agree they definitely took some 'personal time'.

The trip did provide for a good deal of material in different formats / media, so call it whatever you like, but their audience / "fans" sure dug it.

..."yup"

Anyway look what Evan liked on twitter today:

in response to this tweet:

Why would he like that? First of all, is it better to constantly be switching up your living situation and flatmates (because judging by his constant stressed out tweets about trouble with moving, I'd say no) than to be with someone whose company you genuinely enjoy and can be relied upon to not ditch you (coughdodiecough) on short notice? I know I'm reading too much into things, but like, what else is twitter for. No offence at all to the person who tweeted it, but it's not a funny tweet or anything, so why would he like that out of all the others. Because he's off-putting and bitter is my vote.