IDB

bedhead91 wrote:

galaxies wrote:[offtopic]is it okay if people censor the usage of qu**r, the word makes me feel so uneasy when it's used as a blanket term and essentially its general usage[/offtopic]

I get that it makes people uncomfortable and I'll try to refrain from using it on this forum again, but do we really need to censor it? It's a word that has gained such mainstream usage that I feel like you would have to avoid most LGBT-related media and theory to not see it being used as a blanket term. (Sorry if other people don't like it being used as a blanket term. I just finished writing a 3.000 word paper for a class where I referenced academics who use it about twenty times per sentence, it's so normalized in academia that I sometimes forget that it still makes people uneasy in a non-academic context.)

even if it has gained a lot of mainstream usage, qu**r still has its negative connotations and meanings and no amount of mainstream usage or normalization can change the meaning of the word really, it's still derogatory. i respect people using it as a personal label but when it's used as an umbrella term (i've seen it used towards other members of the board and i don't know whether you guys all have consent using the q slur to label each other otherwise i feel uncomfortable), it essentially forces a derogatory term on the community.

to bring this back to dnp, that's why i heavily dislike the word being used towards them. they have neither expressed that they've wanted to be labeled qu**r y'know.

i apologize if i'm being a bother, i just have such strong feelings towards the word, it's just i can't expect to really have a positive outlook on the word with the connotations and meanings and there's the fact that it's been used on me negatively quite a few times.

edit: why is this at the top this is useless

Catallena wrote: I... have a very different take on why that video was privated. And I already know most people will not agree with this but I want to say it anyway. I'm not saying that Dan doesn't care at all because he does obviously, but I always doubted he took that one down because he suddenly cared so much? Like yeah he became more educated about the subject no doubt about that, but he probably just got increasingly more shit about it from people and was tired of it so he privated it. Dan has a video with a literal sexual abuser still sitting on his channel, and I get that it's a popular video and his first one to really blow up so at the same time I can't fault him for it too much, but if I were Dan that'd be the first one to go if I suddenly started caring so much. The feedback that he couldn't ignore anymore was probably far more of a factor in that video being privated than his change of heart.

jaej wrote: also, i agree with you on why he private the gender video. partially, anyway. i definitely think he's grown up and is at least embarrassed by that (even if i'll go along with him saying it was a joke/sarcastic video that was very poorly executed) but that i still expect it would have stayed up if he didnt get or expect more backlash. i know he certainly wouldnt make that now, for his own views as well as the backlash, but i still dont think hes massively against keeping it up. it's unlisted anyway, right? not deleted or anything.

blueapple_x wrote:

I kind of always thought this in the back of my mind. As you both touched on, I also obvs believe Dan cares about the issues of gender roles and inequality, but I have a nagging feeling at the back of my mind as to why he unlisted this but not the one with Alex (although maybe he'll eventually unlist/private the one remaining vid with him like he did the first one). Here's what he put in the description portion of the Men vs Women video:

description edit in 2015: "honestly this is such a dumb video idea and is 410 kinds of problematic (yay stereotypes) but it's got 4million views so w/e".

-->I remember people being quite pissed about his blatantly dismissive attitude.

video unlisted in 2016 and comment added: "Unlisted because gender rolls are the worst kind of bread and whilst this video is obvs just silly joking about stereotypes and not to be taken seriously at all it's just kinda dumb but hey the link is here if you ever want to watch some fun Carrie/Dan action!"

Now, don't hate me for asking this, but did they even talk about gender roles? There were some (imo) lighthearted digs (like guys not being able to multi-task) but from what I remember both Dan's and Carrie's arguments were mostly biology based--I know they didn't apply to all men and women though. Someone educate me but does that still count as gender roles? I would say that's closer to a stereotype of gender norms rather than gender roles. Instead of implying that gender roles were the reason he unlisted it, he could've also just said he didn't want anyone to feel excluded. His description always confused me a bit.

this is exactly my issue with his disclaimer as well. You're right, it isn't gender rolls really, especially since so much of it was based on biology. Not only is it a shallow understanding of an issue, but I also hate that he had to turn an explanation for unlisting something into a joke/reference to some internet meme.

I find it kinda weird that dan unlisted that one but not the one featuring a joke about sexual abuse...maybe that one doesn't have much backlash since it's so old a lot of people haven't seen it at this point?

[offtopic]I just want to say, that now that I have gone to TATINOF I have been reading the reviews (finally) from others shows. I find it so interesting how certain things stick out to different people. I love the diversity of opinions and how everyone else felt about each show. Perhaps it is the anthropologist in me, but I love seeing how different people see the "world". So everyone who wrote a review THANK YOU! It is so interesting, and I have to say it fills me with determination.... I am for all of you guys on this forum.... [/offtopic]

galaxies wrote: even if it has gained a lot of mainstream usage, qu**r still has its negative connotations and meanings and no amount of mainstream usage or normalization can change the meaning of the word really, it's still derogatory. i respect people using it as a personal label but when it's used as an umbrella term (i've seen it used towards other members of the board and i don't know whether you guys all have consent using the q slur to label each other otherwise i feel uncomfortable), it essentially forces a derogatory term on the community.

to bring this back to dnp, that's why i heavily dislike the word being used towards them. they have neither expressed that they've wanted to be labeled qu**r y'know.

i apologize if i'm being a bother, i just have such strong feelings towards the word, it's just i can't expect to really have a positive outlook on the word with the connotations and meanings and there's the fact that it's been used on me negatively quite a few times.

edit: why is this at the top this is useless

I agree. You're not the only one who has strong feelings against the word, and depsite it's recent popularity, it wasn't long ago the it was and still is in some places a slur. While I don't feel it needs to be censored, I generally feel uncomfortable when it's used to refer to specific people when they've never used it to refer to themselves or given permission.

greatnessflicker wrote:

blueapple_x wrote:

I kind of always thought this in the back of my mind. As you both touched on, I also obvs believe Dan cares about the issues of gender roles and inequality, but I have a nagging feeling at the back of my mind as to why he unlisted this but not the one with Alex (although maybe he'll eventually unlist/private the one remaining vid with him like he did the first one). Here's what he put in the description portion of the Men vs Women video:

description edit in 2015: "honestly this is such a dumb video idea and is 410 kinds of problematic (yay stereotypes) but it's got 4million views so w/e".

-->I remember people being quite pissed about his blatantly dismissive attitude.

video unlisted in 2016 and comment added: "Unlisted because gender rolls are the worst kind of bread and whilst this video is obvs just silly joking about stereotypes and not to be taken seriously at all it's just kinda dumb but hey the link is here if you ever want to watch some fun Carrie/Dan action!"

Now, don't hate me for asking this, but did they even talk about gender roles? There were some (imo) lighthearted digs (like guys not being able to multi-task) but from what I remember both Dan's and Carrie's arguments were mostly biology based--I know they didn't apply to all men and women though. Someone educate me but does that still count as gender roles? I would say that's closer to a stereotype of gender norms rather than gender roles. Instead of implying that gender roles were the reason he unlisted it, he could've also just said he didn't want anyone to feel excluded. His description always confused me a bit.

this is exactly my issue with his disclaimer as well. You're right, it isn't gender rolls really, especially since so much of it was based on biology. Not only is it a shallow understanding of an issue, but I also hate that he had to turn an explanation for unlisting something into a joke/reference to some internet meme.

I've seen some confusion about the disclaimer as well. Yeah, I guess him saying that the vid is exclusionary would be more apt. But I guess it felt like it was reinforcing gender roles w the whole men vs. women theme, and Carrie and Dan battling it out.

blueapple_x wrote:

I kind of always thought this in the back of my mind. As you both touched on, I also obvs believe Dan cares about the issues of gender roles and inequality, but I have a nagging feeling at the back of my mind as to why he unlisted this but not the one with Alex (although maybe he'll eventually unlist/private the one remaining vid with him like he did the first one). Here's what he put in the description portion of the Men vs Women video:

description edit in 2015: "honestly this is such a dumb video idea and is 410 kinds of problematic (yay stereotypes) but it's got 4million views so w/e".

-->I remember people being quite pissed about his blatantly dismissive attitude.

video unlisted in 2016 and comment added: "Unlisted because gender rolls are the worst kind of bread and whilst this video is obvs just silly joking about stereotypes and not to be taken seriously at all it's just kinda dumb but hey the link is here if you ever want to watch some fun Carrie/Dan action!"

Now, don't hate me for asking this, but did they even talk about gender roles? There were some (imo) lighthearted digs (like guys not being able to multi-task) but from what I remember both Dan's and Carrie's arguments were mostly biology based--I know they didn't apply to all men and women though. Someone educate me but does that still count as gender roles? I would say that's closer to a stereotype of gender norms rather than gender roles. Instead of implying that gender roles were the reason he unlisted it, he could've also just said he didn't want anyone to feel excluded. His description always confused me a bit.

Maybe his opinion on it changed enough that he wanted to unlist it himself. He probably doesn't know the right vocabulary to talk about it but it doesn't mean he has the wrong intentions. His explanations for why he unlisted it could seem too dismissive but I take it as he was trying not to be too 'serious business' and made a joke out of it even though the reason is a serious topic.

For the videos with Alex Day and the abuse joke it's not good that he didn't remove them but they're also not the main idea of the video. The video with Carrie was about men v. women. The other videos weren't 'Interview with an abuser' or 'Let's talk about abuse'.

greatnessflicker wrote: this is exactly my issue with his disclaimer as well. You're right, it isn't gender rolls really, especially since so much of it was based on biology. Not only is it a shallow understanding of an issue, but I also hate that he had to turn an explanation for unlisting something into a joke/reference to some internet meme.

True. I think Dan even emphasized at the beginning of the video that he's talking about biological differences/hardships (as opposed to social ones--as that would've caused an even bigger shitstorm). No disrespect to Dan, but imo the description made it look like he doesn't know what a gender role is since that's the term he used to describe why his video could be seen as offensive.

spaceguitar wrote: I've seen some confusion about the disclaimer as well. Yeah, I guess him saying that the vid is exclusionary would be more apt. But I guess it felt like it was reinforcing gender roles w the whole men vs. women theme, and Carrie and Dan battling it out.

Do you mean it felt like it was reinforcing gender roles because Carrie (a female) and Dan (a male) were expected to behave a certain way by defending their respective genders (since gender roles have to do with behaviours)?

spider wrote:Maybe his opinion on it changed enough that he wanted to unlist it himself. He probably doesn't know the right vocabulary to talk about it but it doesn't mean he has the wrong intentions. His explanations for why he unlisted it could seem too dismissive but I take it as he was trying not to be too 'serious business' and made a joke out of it even though the reason is a serious topic.

For the videos with Alex Day and the abuse joke it's not good that he didn't remove them but they're also not the main idea of the video. The video with Carrie was about men v. women. The other videos weren't 'Interview with an abuser' or 'Let's talk about abuse'.

Yeah, he probably doesn't know the exact vocabulary to use I don't think he had the wrong intentions just because he used the wrong term though. And yeah I suspect one of the reasons why he didn't remove that vid with Alex is because the title 'Men vs Women' jumps out a lot more and is just asking for a shitstorm. Whereas you'd have to know Alex's history of abuse to be offended by the shipping video. I'm not at all saying it's right to still have it up though.

Just to spark some conversation (this is directed to anyone willing to answer):
Out of curiosity, do you think the reason Men vs Women was offensive/caused a shitstorm was because it unintentionally excluded other gender identities or because you felt insensitive things were said about the biological differences between cis men and women (and if so, what things were said that offended you)?

bedhead91 wrote:

jaej wrote:im pretty sure the princess thing was due to a failure of using my language for an ~aesthetic~ purpose
it's the obsession over him wearing dresses and the way it's shown that makes me uncomfortable as an AMAB person who presents as feminine. until he does it, i'll praise him for being a generally good dude in regards to gender roles, not for actually doing anything out of the ordinary. it's people like gackt or hyde who make it easier for me to present as i am, not a boy who implies dresses are nice. that's great, yes, but don't make it out to be something it isn't. it's the phantom reinforcing gender roles, he did something feminine now he has to be 100% feminine because only one or the other is acceptable
the one time he worse a dress was for a comedic purpose. that isn't breaking any gender roles, that's enforcing them, because a man wearing a dress is so crazy and funny, it must be a dare or a promise for charity, right? i just can't praise him for something he just doesn't do. i hope he does if he feels comfortable, but i can't praise him for something he doesn't come close to doing
are there any other AMAB genderqueer or otherwise trans feminine people here who can offer an opinion?

I agree with all of this, though I am cis, so please correct me if I'm saying anything that's out of line.

Dan is praised a lot for not caring about gender roles, when there are actual trans and non-binary advocates out there wearing dresses who don't get this same kind of attention or praise. It reminds me of feminist female YouTubers who get called ''annoying sjw feminazis'' while Dan and Phil are praised for mentioning once that they are feminists. As much as the Phandom wants to see Dan as some kind of queer icon, the fact is that he's not publicly ''out'' at this point in his life and might never be.(Insert disclaimer here for if he's not actually straight, blah blah blah.) He seemingly has no interest in being a LGBT role model rn and we're going to have to accept that.

Just wanted to quickly thank you both for your contributions on this topic. You expressed most of how I feel in a clear & concise way & I think you brought up points that I hope others read, think about seriously, & apply to not just Dan & the phandom, but also the greater fucking world out there.

Winston wrote:[offtopic]I just want to say, that now that I have gone to TATINOF I have been reading the reviews (finally) from others shows. I find it so interesting how certain things stick out to different people. I love the diversity of opinions and how everyone else felt about each show. Perhaps it is the anthropologist in me, but I love seeing how different people see the "world". So everyone who wrote a review THANK YOU! It is so interesting, and I have to say it fills me with determination.... I am for all of you guys on this forum.... [/offtopic]

Yes 100%. I finally was able to go read back the reviews and it is so great reading everyone's experiences. And while I loved the show I went to last night I do think we did get a tired Dan and Phil. Not that is was bad but just like maybe doing the show without much extras. I'm not going to spoil anything but just meaning they probably were ready for a break. I would totally go again if I could. Just because I do think there are subtle differences in the shows and because I am

In relation to the recent discussion on fan art of Dan wearing dresses, I came across this on tumblr:



Link to top: http://www.hottopic.com/product/studio- ... 77629.html
It says 'girls sweater' maybe implying there's a 'boys' version (?) but the 'girls' version is the only one on the site.

IDK just thought it was relevant although it's obviously a pretty ~ambiguous~ piece of clothing + it might have been a gift from a fan so he didn't necessarily see that it's "for girls"

Edit: this thread is as dead as a doorknob plz D&P give us a DITL on tour or SOMETHING I can't wait another week for a new gaming vid

Dan tend to like cloth design regardless which sex its meant for, I think he is all for unisex clothing. I remembered he wanted to buy tops at Epcot in the Japan section but he couldn't as the sizes were for small size girls (check Cat's vlog if you want the exact words he used).

If this isn't #relatable, I don't know what is:



http://mortallyvirtualphan.tumblr.com/p ... -new-video



now all you little trashcans please go study/finish your coursework/homework because we want to be happy and proud of you on results day, not sad and trying to tell you it's ok and you'll do alright in the resits...

Ickle: And now, some Dad Lester in action :

Ticia wrote:Ickle:

Ticia wrote:And now, some Dad Lester in action :

Good save Philly! Bonus "Dan selfie cos "biggest arms" too
I would be that kid. Only I'd take the whole thing down, and probably Phil too. Chaos everywhere, and I'd probably get launched through a window by Drake.

IckleMissMayhem wrote:If this isn't #relatable, I don't know what is:



http://mortallyvirtualphan.tumblr.com/p ... -new-video



now all you little trashcans please go study/finish your coursework/homework because we want to be happy and proud of you on results day, not sad and trying to tell you it's ok and you'll do alright in the resits...

I'm all done with uni for the summer but this is too real
Also +1 on this thread being dead, I want a liveshow damnit I'm bored

Ticia wrote: And now, some Dad Lester in action :

I love Dan's "worlds biggest arms djskakhh.... !!! I HAVE DONE THAT LIKE FIVE TIMES" while Phil is making sure the kid is okay omg

Ticia wrote:
And now, some Dad Lester in action :

At first I read it as 'Dan Lester' and started thinking that I missed something
It really surprises me how quick Phil is to react and the reflexes he had in this. Like he's one of the clumsiest people I know of and susddenly there he is multitasking while making sure the kid is safe. Impressive

sunday wrote:In relation to the recent discussion on fan art of Dan wearing dresses, I came across this on tumblr:



Link to top: http://www.hottopic.com/product/studio- ... 77629.html
It says 'girls sweater' maybe implying there's a 'boys' version (?) but the 'girls' version is the only one on t
he site.

IDK just thought it was relevant although it's obviously a pretty ~ambiguous~ piece of clothing + it might have been a gift from a fan so he didn't necessarily see that it's "for girls"

Edit: this thread is as dead as a doorknob plz D&P give us a DITL on tour or SOMETHING I can't wait another week for a new gaming vid

Completely agree. It's not like it is even shaped for a female like some t shirts are. It is a jumper that could be worn by anyone and no one would know it is a "girls" jumper.
I would definitely say it was from a fan like the attack on titan one. (also I really want that Jumper )

Also how slow is this thread. Can't wait for the tour to end now. I think we are all going mad in here! I can't wait for LS every Tuesday and Sunday again

if they have a "one ls per month" contract with younow it should be Phil's turn to do one today unless they made a special deal with them and the joint one counts for both
i'm so bored, it feels like a million years since the last AP and dapg even though it hasn't been that long at all and we just got the dinof vid
i wonder how much of their audience would drop if they stopped doing liveshows

<- it looks like it's jumping out of the trash can :3

I still think the fact that the sweater is labeled as "for girls" at Hot Topic and the fact that Dan's still wearing it, assuming he bought it himself, is saying something. I don't think he would've worn it a few years ago in fear that it would make him seem too feminine or "gay" but now he seems to be totally comfortable with himself enough to say he doesn't care about the label on the clothing. Obviously clothing is not gendered, but the stores put labels on them and some people care about that. I think it's good that Dan doesn't.

did i make sense?

Ticia wrote:
And now, some Dad Lester in action :

Phil in this vine made my heart and naughtybits go all asplodey simultaneously.

I've watched in on loop for several minutes can we get a ls or another video?

Off-Topic but I was scrolling through the Phan tag on tumblr (as you do) and found this COMPLETELY SERIOUS fanfic and there was this one line....

I'm just.... I legit choked on my chicken when I saw this... the fic carried on as normal, as if nothing had happened.... I am dead. I have died.

Oh goodness the things fanfics come up with. What fascinates me is the creativity of AUs. I'm not really an AU person and some of the AUs are just WILD. I totally get that it's a legit genre but some of them are so creative its amazing lol.