IDB

sugar wrote: Thu Apr 05, 2018 5:02 amand what about his current branding? furries, sex, and euthanasia aren't a little cringy? he's not going to regret 2018 dan in 5 years time? sure.

I definitely agree with some of what you posted, but I do want to just respond to this since it's something I've seen before - yes, there is a good chance that in five years he'll look back on 2018 Dan and find him a bit cringe. But I think that's an absolutely natural thing. People are constantly growing and changing and evolving. Most people aren't who they were five years ago. It's okay to do something and mean it and enjoy it in the moment, and then five years later to not feel as connected to it. It would be literally impossible for a person like Dan, who chronically overthinks and has a really painful level of self-scrutiny happening nonstop, to predict who he's going to be in five years and make his current self match up with that.

*arrives at IDB 11 hours late with Starbucks*

So I'm choosing to not comment too much on the first portion of the liveshow where he talks about unlisting the videos bc it seems like everytime Dan posts any solo content I end up going on a rant along the lines of "Let him live" and "Why must everyone be so negative about Dan?" Like really, he makes a decision about his own videos on his own channel and people get mad. Let him live. There i said it, now I can move on

Anyways so I decided to focus more on the positive than negative and noted a few timestamps of things that i found interesting/ made me happy from the ls:
Also I agree with whoever suggested to go on tumblr and watch the beginning part where he's talking to Phil, honestly that Hello Internet joke was one of the highlights of the whole ls I can't imagine why he would ever cut it.

PS sorry if this post is rambley and weird its 3am

Another Dan liveshow that creates waves of controversy with some in the fandom, and I'm again stunned by how people misinterpret his words in actions. I hope this doesn't become a pattern, because right now if I were Dan I'd wonder why i'd ever livestream. Seems like a a lot of people who don't really like his streams (because of the ways he says things) are sure very interested in criticizing him afterwards

I was happy with the unexpected stream. He talked about plenty of interesting things, it's a shame the unlisted video's draw most of the attention.

- About the vids: a regrettable loss, even if most are still watchable. This isn't really a new thing, he's been unlisting multiple video's throughout the years i've been following him. The only thing that has changed really is the volume and that this time we actually get an explanation. Phil, being much more 'professional' about this, just erased whole years of his past without bothering to give much of an explanation. Dan does something similar, offers reasons one might agree or disagree with, and he gets a bunch of outcry that I think nobody would level at Phil, or (god forbid) themselves. No doubt plenty of people that think he shouldn't have deleted those video's would not bat an eye while deleting their own past. The whole idiocy of social media is that people get way to absorbed in presenting a certain image of themselves and redacting and tweaking it to appear more like they would like to be seen. Why would it be different with youtubers then? They get judged a lot more on their public image (which they only partly control) and put themselves out much more in an effort to entertain (and profit from that, for sure) yet they should have less of an opportunity to do so?
I regret that he thinks he should 'clean up' his past or thinks his former vids are 'tacky' or 'problematic'. I don't agree at all. But since he decided to do so anyway, I appreciate that he offers an insight into his motivations and reasons, even if we sure don't get to hear all of them and they might have been repackaged some for mass consumption by a diverse audience.

How he explained it, I have no problems with. The idea that the email he showed is fake, is just something that gets thrown out without any sort of backing other than you choose not to believe him on it. The idea that he "publically shamed" the 11 yo old person by reading out loud that mail and showing how he felt about the phrases used , I just find ridiculous. You can say everything is a public shaming, if you apply it to this -where no name was even given- it just devalues what a real public shaming is imo.

- A fursona reveal! This took me by surprise a bit, i guess he's staking out his territory. Happy weeb hunting, tomska . Everything he said made it (even more) obvious to me that he's not actually a furry. He says he "we don't want him to talk about it" since he's used to people getting upset when he insists upon saying it's a joke. Still, that is all he said again in this video, not giving any sort of reason for his fursonna that would suggest he has a genuine attraction to it. He even apologizes to the real furry community [for it being a joke]. It's really obvious if you're willing to read just a tad between the lines.

- Introversion, productivity, the coming tour and the video in june. He didn't really spill the tea on the video, but i hope it's one where he talks about himself and his life, just like in the depression/living the truth video. I hope that's the direction that he takes with his video's. It was interesting to hear him talk about being more productive in social media and how we can expect to 'get slapped in our faces' with content. Bring it on I wish he shared his thoughts when he said he was a 'high functioning' many things, because i wonder what it is he doesn't want to say there. Just high-functioning introvert? High functioning but chronically depressed? Something else?
It's him sharing this sort of personal information that, in the end, make me relate and like him as a person. He's always walked that fine line for me of offering some insight into his mind, yet talking about it in a way that offers some (comedic) relief and plenty of self-awareness. That is the Dan i'm interested in: the one who talks us about his actual self.
Sadly, it seems that some people aren't really interested in that Dan primarily. This is a reflection about parts of the community at large. So it's not specifically aimed at anyone on this forum, lest a person starts feeling offended.
A lot of people, i think often unwittingly, don't allow him to be vulnerable. They jump on him for every imperfection they see and they personally don't like his style of saying things, or think he's being offensive or crude or problematic. Well if you think that's the case, you might have to draw your conclusions and accept Dan is not the person who you think he ought to be. Why is it that Dan draws much more critique? I think it's because much more than Phil he's engaged with showing us, at least to an extent, his true personality. Phil just thinks that knowing him is none of our business. That might be a much wiser choice if you just want to make a living on youtube. Just never express an opinion that's not really safe within your audience and everybody can hitch along for a smooth right. It's like playing with dolls in a dollhouse. It's what the K-pop bands do very well. It's also completely unbelievable, reduces what we see of a person to a caricature and is rather boring to my tastes.
That's not the kind of vlogging I like though. I want a more vulnerable, more genuine youtuber. Often it seems like people would like to know more about their private lives too. If that is the aim though, I would hope that the fan community in general starts understanding that for a person to be willing to put out more intimate details about himself to millions of strangers, you need to have the feeling that people will try to understand you in good faith and accept that the way you talk about things and the humor and style you use to express yourself could differ from what you find "appropriate".

The Drug Deal has been updated.

Edit: If anybody notices some sort of mistake in the document, big or small, feel free to PM or @ me and I'll fix it.

felucca wrote: Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:07 am The Drug Deal has been updated.

Wow 2018 Dan really hates 2011 Dan huh?

Edit: If anybody notices some sort of mistake in the document, big or small, feel free to PM or @ me and I'll fix it.

And, like, tell me if it turns out he's not 100% done with changing his mind over which videos should be deleted or unlisted or public, because man does that boy change his mind like a Katy Perry song.

Thanks for updating @felucca the drug deal looks like their video's are going the way of real drugs. The moment the substance isn't available through public channels the black markets prospers xD

I wanted to say something about the liveshow last night but couldn't really focus. Overall I liked the liveshow, I think he's definitely in a better mood and he seems so excited about tour that he's really making me so curious about it.

I wish he learned that he doesn't have to give out dates for his new videos, oh Dan lol

I'm sad to see many videos go but thank god he actually unlisted the ones I care the most. I wish he didn't behave like that whenever he makes a decision, if he wants to do something just do it, don't put the weight on your audience. He seems so frustrated with his main demographic yet cares so much by how casual viewers think of him. As the core audience, aka the ones that follow him more than casual viewer, it's frustrating and sad.

On another negative note because I can't help myself, since the beginning of the year he seems to portray himself as distanced from Phil am I the only one having this thought? It disappears when they are in videos together or when he talks about the tour. I'm not sure how to describe it either tbh

Welp, had a lot of catching up to do! I don't have anything new to add to the unlisting/privating videos discussion but I did find myself rolling my eyes a lot at the twitter phandom. Most people there seem to be upset about the fact that Dan "bullied" an eleven-year-old for being cringy, as if they never make fun of younger fans for saying XD or "don't cry, craft" but go off, I guess. Not that I think the whole email thing wasn't a bit off putting (regardless of whether it's real or not) but I just think people are being a bit hypocritical

Anyway, besides that I did like the live show a lot and hope that Dan doesn't feel too bummed out that his last two live show haven't been received all that well but I also hope he listens to feedback from fans to prevent situations like this from happening again.

I wonder whether there will be any damage control this time, though I suppose him tweeting and replying to so many people was part of it considering he hardly ever does that after live shows. A new video seems unlikely since we just got a baking and gaming video but I wouldn't say no to a picture of the tour set :mrgreen:

Ok so it's been a day and I've calmed down and read some things that really helped to better my understanding. This is going off the basis that the email was real. So if dan did get an email from an 11 year old, who was watching old videos then I can totally understand why he would want the videos to be gone. Imagine the type of problematic humor in some of these videos, that even made me, a 21 year old, really put off. I see that those videos are something that an 11 year old should not see and think that the humor is okay because someone they look up to says it. He said that email address was attached to one specific video, we don't know which one but maybe it made Dan really uncomfortable to believe someone so young was watching it. Even if the email was a troll, perhaps he realized that they are young people who can easily find these videos and believe that those types of 'jokes' are okay. Now if Dan could have explained it like this and not make it seem as if he was making fun of the girl then that would have been dandy.

Also I really hate when people bring up Phil in situation like this and say well if it was him we wouldn't treat him like this and vice versa. Yes Phil did delete chunks of his old videos. I wasn't here when those videos were removed but from what I've heard people say about them he didn't delete them because they were problematic. The only truly scandalous thing that I can remember is in one he asked two girls to kiss. (Please correct me if I am wrong though). Deleting videos because of major cringe or because old friends from uni are in them and they don't want to be recognized by potentially millions of people isn't exactly the same as deleting video because some of the stuff said in them was in poor taste. Imo one would need an explanation while the other wouldn't.

papierklemmen wrote: Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:43 am meh, let those videos be gone. even How To Speak Northern. it was one of the first vids of his that i saw even before i knew what dan & phil were and while i loved it, thought it was fun (albeit awkard), i was still taken aback by the "raped in the alleyway" joke, and lord knows i'm surprised how many of his videos have a rape joke. let them all burn.

the problem with dan is that it was his most prolific time content wise (on his channel) and he doesn't really have anything to counter balance the loss of these old videos because he barely creates new ones. if by now he had finally made up his mind on what his yt identity/content/style is and stuck with it and backed that up by making loads of videos then it wouldn't have been a problem, but at some point if he continues down this road he might just end up in the minus (maybe that's what he wants...lol).

I wholeheartedly agree with letting all the rape jokes burn. Though I think his most prolific time occurred right after this, when they moved to London. 2012 may have bad connotations for the phandom and the ls from then are pretty cringe, but the boy sure made lots of videos and they’re pretty good.

hello9217 wrote: Thu Apr 05, 2018 3:27 am

Speedygonz33 wrote: Thu Apr 05, 2018 3:17 am I have a theory that Dan is going back to Uni. It makes sense imo with the deleting possibly offensive, immature things he’s said in the past and with wanting to announce something in June. I mean, he even tied the video with “Trying To Live My Truth” which mentions it. Idk it may be a stretch but it’s just a theory.

Trust me with all the theories that I know people will be thinking I will gladly hop on this one and it actually seems pretty logical. I think dan would actually thoroughly enjoy going back to uni

I’m having a hard time wrapping my head around the possibility of Dan going back to university. Like he’s said so many contradictory things about how he handled school. I know only doing three pieces of homework in thirteen years was hyperbole, but still. He’ll have to write papers... I may projecting. I got through college with decent grades, but the thought of ever going back gives me major anxiety. I also don’t think that’s what the June video could be about. That would be a really weird thing to announce in the middle of tour, but who knows

@hello9217 Yeah Phil privated over a hundred videos. I wasn’t around so I don’t know their content beyond what he revealed in TABINOF or has shown in more recent videos. I did come across one the other day called Flashing Images that was pretty and artistic and exactly the kind of short project one would make in university. I hadn’t heard that Phil asked two girls to kiss, but Dan definitely did in his old university video that he privated right before his new uni vid. Not to say that Phil couldn’t have as well.

hello9217 wrote: Thu Apr 05, 2018 11:39 am Ok so it's been a day and I've calmed down and read some things that really helped to better my understanding. This is going off the basis that the email was real. So if dan did get an email from an 11 year old, who was watching old videos then I can totally understand why he would want the videos to be gone. Imagine the type of problematic humor in some of these videos, that even made me, a 21 year old, really put off. I see that those videos are something that an 11 year old should not see and think that the humor is okay because someone they look up to says it. He said that email address was attached to one specific video, we don't know which one but maybe it made Dan really uncomfortable to believe someone so young was watching it. Even if the email was a troll, perhaps he realized that they are young people who can easily find these videos and believe that those types of 'jokes' are okay. Now if Dan could have explained it like this and not make it seem as if he was making fun of the girl then that would have been dandy.

Also I really hate when people bring up Phil in situation like this and say well if it was him we wouldn't treat him like this and vice versa. Yes Phil did delete chunks of his old videos. I wasn't here when those videos were removed but from what I've heard people say about them he didn't delete them because they were problematic. The only truly scandalous thing that I can remember is in one he asked two girls to kiss. (Please correct me if I am wrong though). Deleting videos because of major cringe or because old friends from uni are in them and they don't want to be recognized by potentially millions of people isn't exactly the same as deleting video because some of the stuff said in them was in poor taste. Imo one would need an explanation while the other wouldn't.

We don' know if his motivation to unlist or delete all those video's was based on the idea that some of the stuff said in them was in poor taste. He's offered different motives. He's said he found the video's "tacky" or that he dislikes the impact that the old vids still generate and the mail of "Sandra" was meant as a demonstration of that. He waved his old persona goodbye and regardless of whether you think his reasons are valid he did offer an explanation.
I bring up Phil because firstly i think the situations are sort of comparable. They make similar vlog style content, they both have a long past (together), and they both have become increasingly selective about what of that past they want to show us. I just read a whole lot of objections about Dan's style or see him held to a standard of communication and sensitivity that I don't think is being applied with Phil.

The real dividing lines in this fandom are tolerance for ambiguity, required levels of sensitivity and appetite for drama as a way to chase away the boredom. This impacts the dynamic between them and their audience and in this case, I feel people are mostly enlarging small points of critique that may hold some value, building a whole story around it and with some (mostly talking about tiwtter now) it ends up in these overdrawn and really negative and dramatic conclusions about Dan and what he's supposedly done there. I wouldn't care much for it if i didn't think it had such a big potential impact in how they view their relationship with their audience. Live shows where he talks more freely about some things he wouldn't say in a more structured video is the content i most enjoy and right now it just seems that they have absolutely no good reason to open up more, because they will be scrutinized and held to standards that we wouldn't dream to hold for ourselves, on matters that in the end are really personal for them and don't need to be part of what they share with us.
It would be their choice, but also a bloody shame if an overzealous fan community that criticizes their every move keeps them in a locked and shiny cage of strictly professional entertainers.

Stakhanov wrote: Thu Apr 05, 2018 8:38 am - A fursona reveal! This took me by surprise a bit, i guess he's staking out his territory. Happy weeb hunting, tomska . Everything he said made it (even more) obvious to me that he's not actually a furry. He says he "we don't want him to talk about it" since he's used to people getting upset when he insists upon saying it's a joke. Still, that is all he said again in this video, not giving any sort of reason for his fursonna that would suggest he has a genuine attraction to it. He even apologizes to the real furry community [for it being a joke]. It's really obvious if you're willing to read just a tad between the lines.

Nah, boy's a furry on some level and that's what he's saying between those lines.

Stakhanov wrote: Thu Apr 05, 2018 8:38 am I'm again stunned by how people misinterpret his words in actions

Same.

Stakhanov wrote: Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:21 pmThe real dividing lines in this fandom are tolerance for ambiguity, required levels of sensitivity and appetite for drama as a way to chase away the boredom. This impacts the dynamic between them and their audience and in this case, I feel people are mostly enlarging small points of critique that may hold some value, building a whole story around it and with some (mostly talking about tiwtter now) it ends up in these overdrawn and really negative and dramatic conclusions about Dan and what he's supposedly done there. I wouldn't care much for it if i didn't think it had such a big potential impact in how they view their relationship with their audience. Live shows where he talks more freely about some things he wouldn't say in a more structured video is the content i most enjoy and right now it just seems that they have absolutely no good reason to open up more, because they will be scrutinized and held to standards that we wouldn't dream to hold for ourselves, on matters that in the end are really personal for them and don't need to be part of what they share with us.
It would be their choice, but also a bloody shame if an overzealous fan community that criticizes their every move keeps them in a locked and shiny cage of strictly professional entertainers.

Look, I'm all for thinking that sometimes fan communities do overreact. For example, I don't love people freaking out about Dan unlisting videos that were non-offensive classics. Unlisting's one thing and he can feel free to remove it from the eyes of the general public. Privating them is another story, when people still enjoy a rewatch or 2. And he made that change... so no more complaints from me.

That said, what you're saying here is that people should stop complaining and take what they get or they may not get anything at all.
Being a fan of someone does not mean I have to support their every move, decision, and word. It means you support them and enjoy their content, but should also be willing to admit when that person has done something you disagree with. And frankly, I don't see people holding Dan to an unattainable standard. They're asking him to reevaluate his approach to people who aren't like him. TBH, I ask that of everyone I know and meet.

Dan is not a POC and is not in a position to understand how the things he says can be offensive, even on a small scale. Dan is not a (potentially imaginary, but it doesn't matter) 11-year-old girl supporting a YouTuber and getting shit-talked in return. He's not his fans, who appreciate parts of him that he continually rejects and complains about.

What Dan is, is human, and humans grow and they learn and tbh they suffer a bit in the process. And so, when fans complain about something, if it's valuable and worth considering, he maybe should. What happened yesterday is a good example of that. He wasn't going to take down the Ship video, but he heard people out and he did. For once, he didn't shut down and get bitter, he took the feedback and he responded. That's all people want.

Dan and Phil are perfectly free to open up about anything they want in a live show and I hope they continue to do so. Opening up doesn't mean being racist, sexist, agist, condescending, or defensive. Opening up means telling us about their day and what movies they watched and their POV on that recent current event. Nothing about that kind of conversation involves offending anyone and even if it does, a short and sweet "I could be wrong, please let me know, I'm learning just as much as we all are" is all that needs to be said.

This is all just Dan and Phil's half of the bargain. As an audience, we would ideally respond with respect and understanding. Respect in instances where they may be busy and unable to provide content on a daily basis. Understanding that sometimes they will make mistakes, but if they bounce back and respond in kind, it's only up for them.

Stakhanov wrote: Thu Apr 05, 2018 8:38 am A lot of people, i think often unwittingly, don't allow him to be vulnerable. They jump on him for every imperfection they see and they personally don't like his style of saying things, or think he's being offensive or crude or problematic. Well if you think that's the case, you might have to draw your conclusions and accept Dan is not the person who you think he ought to be. Why is it that Dan draws much more critique? I think it's because much more than Phil he's engaged with showing us, at least to an extent, his true personality. Phil just thinks that knowing him is none of our business. That might be a much wiser choice if you just want to make a living on youtube. Just never express an opinion that's not really safe within your audience and everybody can hitch along for a smooth right. It's like playing with dolls in a dollhouse. It's what the K-pop bands do very well. It's also completely unbelievable, reduces what we see of a person to a caricature and is rather boring to my tastes.
That's not the kind of vlogging I like though. I want a more vulnerable, more genuine youtuber. Often it seems like people would like to know more about their private lives too. If that is the aim though, I would hope that the fan community in general starts understanding that for a person to be willing to put out more intimate details about himself to millions of strangers, you need to have the feeling that people will try to understand you in good faith and accept that the way you talk about things and the humor and style you use to express yourself could differ from what you find "appropriate".

Everything I said above applies here too. Humor can be inappropriate without being offensive. Someone can open up about their private life without being offensive. And I like to think that's what Dan's going for.

His decision to remove videos yesterday that had offensive jokes in them is evidence of that. He's grown into a sense of humor that doesn't draw from being an asshole. So, suggesting that we're denying that of him is assuming he would even make jokes like that today, and I certainly hope that's not how you perceive 2018!Dan.

Anyway. I want to close out this dissertation by saying that, ultimately, Dan is a good person. None of us would be fans if he wasn't. He puts his heart into his work and his charity and is trying his hardest and i don't begrudge him that. He's always going to have more push back on his live shows, because he's more emotional than Phil, but what that also means is that honestly, people are more invested in him. We care. That's all it comes down to and I hope he understands that, even on days when the phandom's a bit much.

idk if this has been shared yet because i haven't read back so feel free to delete this mods if it's already been posted

The rare Daniel Howell Insta like on a Ben J. Pierce pic...

Catallena wrote: Wed Apr 04, 2018 9:33 pm Dan's liveshows remain exhausting.

I'm upset with him now even including perfectly fine 2011-12 videos in his little delete sprees. Like what on earth was wrong with Left Handedism (omg @lefthandedism sis i'm so sorry how dare he disrespect your username) and How To Speak Northern?

I'm dragged away from the Internet for 24 hours and I come back to find my namesake has disappeared! I guess it's up to me to carry on the memory!

I think I've said before that I don't think it's his strongest video. Maybe he'll do another video on lefthandedness someday. It's not like the trials and tribulations go away as you get older. (This is also one of those videos in which he charmingly talks about his flatmate Phil.)

I do feel sad that Dan has taken down so many of his old videos, despite the cringe. If I like a YouTuber, I like to go back to the beginning and see how they have evolved. Watching Dan's evolution is part of what made me love him.

George wrote: Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:22 am

Amiaw wrote: Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:13 am To change topics slightly, in the live show he talked about getting a visa that would allow him to stay in the US for 3 years. For someone knowledgeable about this, why would he need to do that for this tour and not TATINOF? If he could have gotten the same type of visa for TATINOF I wonder why he didn't since he goes to the US regularly and it seems a hassle to have to get a temporary work visa whenever he comes for conventions and possible Florida trips.

Does this mean they could potentially move to US for few years? I don't have any visa knowledge.

I don’t think their visa is for residency but I couldn’t be wrong. The visa they have now is only for famous people essentially, so it might have been that they couldn’t get that visa before the bour because they didn’t have evidence of their clout in the US as much as they do now. It’s also entirely possible that they decided to pursue this type of visa to avoid a second Bahamas debacle.

I actually think he’s handled this quite well. I was super upset when it looked like all the videos were gone but since only the problematic ones are actually gone and the others are just unlisted, I’m not only okay with that, I think it was a good choice. I honestly didn’t remember that “How to Speak Northern” for example had problematic jokes in it, yikes. But it does and I think it’s a good thing it’s gone then, even though the nostalgia I feel for it is still real. But I’m glad he took the time to explain his decision on Twitter after the liveshow.

I’m actually convinced there was never an eleven-year-old involved in this by the way. The whole thing looks like Dan just needing an excuse to get rid of the old videos and while I kind of understand that, it’s also kind of insulting. Come on, Dan. You can just tell your audience the truth, it’s going to be okay. I actually think his unlisting spree would have been received a lot better if he’d just told us his real reasons in the liveshow. Still glad he cleared it up on Twitter later though and I really hope his next liveshow will be a bit less eventful and a nicer experience for him and us. (And if there was an eleven-year-old for real then I hope he changed her name and didn't read out her actual email, because yikes again)

@rizzo:

I genuinely think Dan is a good person and has the best of intentions. My issue is with communication and not understanding his audience sometimes.

If that email is real (and not a troll) the fan was doing what we all try to do, fit in. When you discover a new fandom or interest you look into everything. You go all the way back so you can understand all the references. You want to be able to prove you aren’t just a casual fan, ‘see I can reference an obscure video from years ago’. It’s essentially about proving your membership to the group. Like I’ve read the books not just seen the movies, I can quite dialogue from season 1, I know the entire family genealogy etc. That fan was just trying to show they were invested.

I completely understand why he would unlist/delete them with a new perspective but would it have been so hard to say that newer viewers are misunderstanding my work/humour and therefore I’m unlisting them so only fans can see them with context. That’s all he needed to say. He just needs to not overexplain. Just be clear and concise and believe in the decision. (Also actually only unlist them if that’s what’s said, that they were private was what made everyone freak) Don’t name the fan, don’t read something the fan never intended to be public.

Anyway enough of my waffle! I just really dislike when fans are shamed in anyway. However I get that wasn’t his intention so onto more positive things.

Katka wrote: Thu Apr 05, 2018 3:53 pm I’m actually convinced there was never an eleven-year-old involved in this by the way. The whole thing looks like Dan just needing an excuse to get rid of the old videos and while I kind of understand that, it’s also kind of insulting. Come on, Dan. You can just tell your audience the truth, it’s going to be okay. I actually think his unlisting spree would have been received a lot better if he’d just told us his real reasons in the liveshow. Still glad he cleared it up on Twitter later though and I really hope his next liveshow will be a bit less eventful and a nicer experience for him and us. (And if there was an eleven-year-old for real then I hope he changed her name and didn't read out her actual email, because yikes again)

I had no problems with the live show and I thought Dan was in a much better mood than the last one but If he is serious about moving forward with intent and growing then he needs to be brave enough to say that he stands by the decisions that he makes without using a (fake) 11 year old as his scapegoat. When he learns how to take ownership of his decisions without putting the responsibility on the fans then I think a lot of the drama that follows Dan will simmer down.

There's many things I didn't need to ever see and this is near top of that list.

rizzo wrote: Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:21 pm
Look, I'm all for thinking that sometimes fan communities do overreact. For example, I don't love people freaking out about Dan unlisting videos that were non-offensive classics. Unlisting's one thing and he can feel free to remove it from the eyes of the general public. Privating them is another story, when people still enjoy a rewatch or 2. And he made that change... so no more complaints from me.

In the end, he's offering free content that he can private or delete at any moment and he doesn't need to offer a good reason. I would regret it, but that's the the deal with all the content uploaded on youtube and that's an understanding I can respect. Even if he deleted every video before 2018 because he wanted to do something completely else, i feel it is his choice and i don't think we're entitled to say he shouldn't because we would like to rewatch things.
In reality, what's happening is that all the video's we've got of them, regardless of their copyright or wishes, are available to watch anyway.

That said, what you're saying here is that people should stop complaining and take what they get or they may not get anything at all.

No, I don't think people should just stop complaining and be happy with what they get. I would be the first to criticize Dan if I think he did something that really is deserving of criticism. What i'm saying is that in this instance, I read a lot of criticism that i deem unfair. On this forum people generally stay polite and measure their critique. In "the wild" of social media, I'm reading a lot of butchering of Dan that's a lot less nuanced and that i don't think is intended to arrive at a better understanding. Some people just like to stir the pot for their own enjoyment and are all to willing to throw a stone at a new target. They don't really measure their stone and appear immensely hypocritical, getting into rude twitter fights while trying to make the point that Dan is insensitive.
I'm just saying that all of this can have an effect. What would I think If i were a professional youtuber? Regardless of any personal feelings about fairness, I would also conclude that it's better to stay safe and uncontroversial. Why would I live stream knowing that at least parts of my audience are clearly on another wavelength. Why would i voice any ideas I have that i suspect would be met with even more controversy? A wave of negative attention like this is just something that tips the scales to "better share less".
Considering that i do think that part of the fan community is overreacting here, yes I regret there's so much criticism for the second time in a row and i wish people would save it for something that i think is worth having so much public outcry for. However it doesn't mean it think we should never criticize people we like and support.

Being a fan of someone does not mean I have to support their every move, decision, and word. It means you support them and enjoy their content, but should also be willing to admit when that person has done something you disagree with. And frankly, I don't see people holding Dan to an unattainable standard. They're asking him to reevaluate his approach to people who aren't like him. TBH, I ask that of everyone I know and meet.

Dan is not a POC and is not in a position to understand how the things he says can be offensive, even on a small scale. Dan is not a (potentially imaginary, but it doesn't matter) 11-year-old girl supporting a YouTuber and getting shit-talked in return. He's not his fans, who appreciate parts of him that he continually rejects and complains about.


What Dan is, is human, and humans grow and they learn and tbh they suffer a bit in the process. And so, when fans complain about something, if it's valuable and worth considering, he maybe should. What happened yesterday is a good example of that. He wasn't going to take down the Ship video, but he heard people out and he did. For once, he didn't shut down and get bitter, he took the feedback and he responded. That's all people want.

I object to the idea that you have to be a person of color to be in a position of understanding how things can be offensive. The broader principle that you should be part of a certain social group to have the authority to judge what is offensive and what is "appropriate", I find a terrible idea. Fundamentally, I don't think "offense" is a valid measure to determine if something he does should be changed. Everyone can be offended at everything, and if you've got a large audience you're bound to offend some. I'm happy for example that they are being offensive to people who don't support gay marriage, or to people who oppose gun control measures. Dan can have highly offensive ideas that can still be of merit. I disagree that the girl got shit-talked or shamed, I think that's a specific interpretation of what happened that i read completely differently.
I'm happy that he took down the ship video, but people didn't want him to respond, nor do they just want Dan to listen to their complaints. They want him to do things exactly as they want and as they think is right. It's more than a friendly request to consider their point of view.
Again, if i had to think about what i wanted to share and what not, this would be more reason to say as little as possible. Chances are i won't see eye to eye with my audience on all issues. It doesn't even matter if there is a 'silent majority' (Dan touched on this in the ls too) that thinks different than me, It's much better to just not express my views or do anything that can open me up for a wave of criticism. Everybody wins, but the space for an open and more frank relationship with the audience shrinks. The only way to offend nobody is to let everyone believe and project their own truth while avoiding anything vaguely controversial and doing my best to sound polite and friendly regardless of my actual thoughts and opinions (shout out to Phil, it's not a bad strategy).

Dan and Phil are perfectly free to open up about anything they want in a live show and I hope they continue to do so. Opening up doesn't mean being racist, sexist, agist, condescending, or defensive. Opening up means telling us about their day and what movies they watched and their POV on that recent current event. Nothing about that kind of conversation involves offending anyone and even if it does, a short and sweet "I could be wrong, please let me know, I'm learning just as much as we all are" is all that needs to be said.

This is all just Dan and Phil's half of the bargain. As an audience, we would ideally respond with respect and understanding. Respect in instances where they may be busy and unable to provide content on a daily basis. Understanding that sometimes they will make mistakes, but if they bounce back and respond in kind, it's only up for them.


Everything I said above applies here too. Humor can be inappropriate without being offensive. Someone can open up about their private life without being offensive. And I like to think that's what Dan's going for.

His decision to remove videos yesterday that had offensive jokes in them is evidence of that. He's grown into a sense of humor that doesn't draw from being an asshole. So, suggesting that we're denying that of him is assuming he would even make jokes like that today, and I certainly hope that's not how you perceive 2018!Dan.

I don't think his humor ever came from being an asshole. His humor was and to a degree still is inappropriate, and I think that's great. Appropriate humor to me sounds akin to political correct writing in the USSR or appropriate art under facism. Humor by it's very nature, imo, is bound to offend and as such "inappropriate"
It can and in reality does often talk about taboo subjects like race, sexism, sexuality, disability etc. That's pretty much the idea behind Cards against humanity. Humor is much broader than just those subjects and people find different things funny or 'in good taste" but if you're asking me how i perceive Dan (2018!Dan doesn't sound like a real person to me ) I think his sense of humor hasn't really changed to much compared to what it used to be. Of course like everyone he has changed as a person and he thinks stuff is "tacky" now where he ddin't use too (or maybe he did, but maybe he thought it was more important that he grew his channel..), but the major thing change imo is in what he thinks is now wise to show to us - and more importantly to others in the future who he might do projects with.

Anyway. I want to close out this dissertation by saying that, ultimately, Dan is a good person. None of us would be fans if he wasn't. He puts his heart into his work and his charity and is trying his hardest and i don't begrudge him that. He's always going to have more push back on his live shows, because he's more emotional than Phil, but what that also means is that honestly, people are more invested in him. We care. That's all it comes down to and I hope he understands that, even on days when the phandom's a bit much.

+1 on that

simmehchan wrote: Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:31 pm

There's many things I didn't need to ever see and this is near top of that list.

This makes me SO itchy! That is a serious reaction to something wow, poor dan

yikes yikes is he ok?? little concerned he posted about it?? alergic reactions are Not Fun

Oof that pic is v v relatable. As someone who is allergic to ~95% of laundry detergent, and has forgotten to wash new clothes before wearing them more than once, it's really more uncomfortable than anything else. Pop a benedryl and you're fine, but boy does it suck to turn bright red and hive-y in the meantime.