Dan & Phil Part 72: Always a Gaytime

[jve]

Okay, since I'm not from any part of Europe or America I'm genuinely curious about about one thing and I'd love it if someone here could make me understand:
What's the difference between dnp posing with the communist flag (that according to rizzo symbolises "a time where roughly millions of people were systematically killed") and dnp posing with the US flag (which symbolizes the millions killed in Afghanistan, Syria and Iraq)? What I'm trying to figure out is wouldn't there be just as big of an outcry if that happens with a fan in US? I mean sure there are different areas of historical periods being discussed here but, to me at least, there is a clear parallelism here. No? am I reading this completely wrong or something?

Also forgive any grammatical mistakes here, english isn't my native language.

[missemma]

Ah yes, I saw that Sarah (who I talked to at the merch stand and was v nice and helpful) posted some Insta stories that show she's still in the Netherlands, so I'm thinking she might be the one who's keeping everyone's (D&P + the part of the crew who's with them in Russia) electronic devices safe.

Probably why (tour spoiler coming up)

they also didn’t do the “what’s in the locked box under Dans bed” part of the show so that they could lock them away in the box and take the key with them! Now no one reveal all their dirty dirty secrets

[SHITiveHITtheFANdom]

So, is it to soon for the capitaKommunistL☆ster jokes?

[PolarFox]

Oh wow. I come from the same country (or so I believe cool that the protest had so many people niceu niceu) as tymyky and while I agree that image of them posing with the flag could be a yuuuuge trouble and i find people supporting communism and glorifying the ussr pretty disgusting and offensive, i can see how it could just be a meme to deppy. I have a north african friend who loves to indulge in ussr/communism memes and at this point, for a lot of memers that don’t have either strong anti ussr propaganda taught in schools or isn’t from a country that has lived the regime it’s been devolved to a meme so much, you wouldn’t even think of i as symbolism of a cruel past. That all said, the russians might have different views of this as some have mentioned before. Not sure about the equation to swastika though... i believe they would refuse to pose with it but who knows. This entire russian leg of the tour has been kinda odd. But i believe the boys are trying their best to make it the best day for their fans so even though i don’t really approve of this, I won’t hold it against the boys.

[yeetussy]

Okay, since I'm not from any part of Europe or America I'm genuinely curious about about one thing and I'd love it if someone here could make me understand:
What's the difference between dnp posing with the communist flag (that according to rizzo symbolises "a time where roughly millions of people were systematically killed") and dnp posing with the US flag (which symbolizes the millions killed in Afghanistan, Syria and Iraq)? What I'm trying to figure out is wouldn't there be just as big of an outcry if that happens with a fan in US? I mean sure there are different areas of historical periods being discussed here but, to me at least, there is a clear parallelism here. No? am I reading this completely wrong or something?

Also forgive any grammatical mistakes here, english isn't my native language.

Honestly as an American myself (from the US, I mean) I’d find it to be such an eyeroll because it’s just so selfish and…American to want them posing with the American flag. I live in the southeast, so it’s a whole lot of ‘Murica pride here, including Confederate flags all around, and it gets so tiring after a while. So I’d probably be just as much not in favour of that as the USSR flag. I could also see a lot of controversy because of all the harm and bigotry we’ve done to the outside world, I wouldn’t want that represented. In other words, all flag posing for me is a

I do agree with you that there’d definitely be an outcry, but maybe not on the same scale or in the same places. The whole posing with flags thing is a yikes in general for me because I know there’s never not gonna be controversy and it acts like a pushing of agenda/support of a history that others may not like.

[susan2]

Thanks @lilabet for keeping us all updated on progress with PhandomGives - you're doing an amazing job!!

I'm late, but just taking a quiet moment out of my day to appreciate the beautiful Phil trifecta today.
Quiff all black glasses (yes, i'm choosing to ignore that little peek of pink sweater!)


[full pics - source 1, source 2, source 3]

[Flomy]

They really didn't censor much, if anyone was still under the impression they might. The differences I noticed are under the spoiler.

The stage set up was different (as has already been shown in a photo here) and they omitted the 'what's in Dan's box' segment, though I asked someone at the show and they speculated it might have been because of the language barrier. Dialogue wise, the only changes I noticed were:

- No joke about the lights being phallic, but that's because there were no lights on the stage.
- In the bar before the voiceover narration about what they don't do, Dan normally makes a joke about how they can't do some things because they're illegal or if not technically illegal then just awkward/messy/not polite to do on a stage. He left that out and replaced it with a line about how there are some things they just can't do, like ride in on an elephant.
- The Horse Prince simulation bit went to Dan instead of Phil this time, which to my knowledge is a first.
- Where he normally says, "Dan and Phil, super best friends and soulmates forever!" this time he just said "Dan and Phil, super best friends!"

What’s the horse prince simulation bit? I only have the general idea that it involves Dan dying in a womens bathroom and Phil making a deal with Satan.

It’s interesting he omitted ‘soulmates’. As they don’t appear to have had much cultural guidance I’m guessing that was a decision Dan made himself, so I’d be interested to know if it returns for the second Moscow show, or for future shows outside of Russia..

When they're introducing the simulation segment of the show, normally Phil usually loads it and something Horse Prince related shows up (someone who has seen the show can step in with a better description, but there's a neighing noise) and Phil acts embarrassed and panicked like it opened the wrong thing and says, "That's a personal project" or "That's my private simulation" or something along those lines. For the first time in the Russia show Dan said it was his private simulation.

It shows a photo of a horse body with Dan's head instead of a horses head with the words "ride me senpai" (I believe it says senpai). Funny it's Dan's secret project now.... wonder if it was still his face on the screen (probably). :mrgreen:

[Catallena]

Okay, since I'm not from any part of Europe or America I'm genuinely curious about about one thing and I'd love it if someone here could make me understand:
What's the difference between dnp posing with the communist flag (that according to rizzo symbolises "a time where roughly millions of people were systematically killed") and dnp posing with the US flag (which symbolizes the millions killed in Afghanistan, Syria and Iraq)? What I'm trying to figure out is wouldn't there be just as big of an outcry if that happens with a fan in US? I mean sure there are different areas of historical periods being discussed here but, to me at least, there is a clear parallelism here. No? am I reading this completely wrong or something?

Also forgive any grammatical mistakes here, english isn't my native language.

I suppose that one big difference would be that the Soviet flag is not in use anymore, since the Soviet Union no longer exists. Because of that it's easier to see it only within that historical context and the bad things it stood for, since it technically no longer represents a country or its people (even though many people still think of it as 'their' flag). Meanwhile, the United States Of America still exist and so does their flag. A more accurate comparison would be to the Confederate flag, which people (rightfully) would definitely be even more pissed about than this.

I do kinda wonder about what the reaction would have been if they had posed with a Russian Federation flag though, since that would be more on par with an American flag.

[Stakhanov]

Alright I'm aware this is a whole wall of text but for those interested in the issue, here's my final thoughts and we don't agree it's fine to disagree


@rizzo
- There's a fairly significant difference between a flag that symbolizes equality and respect and a flag that was flown over a country in a time where roughly millions of people were systematically killed. How is that in any way comparable? Just because it causes controversy? Nah. This has nothing to do with personal politics.

I just gave my reasons why i think they were comparable. Both are flags, both are political symbols. Both do draw controversy and are associated with negative things in the eyes of some. That's a fact. To add to that point: you can't just wave the pride flag in the country Dan and Phil are in because it is considered propaganda for homosexuality and it has been used to silence and oppress lgbt activists in Russia.
So, it's all about (personal) politics. Have you seen a lot of evangelical voters waving lgbt flags? Ask them about their opinion about the lgbt flag, and i'll bet some will see it a personal political statement to wave it. Just because a lot of people in the fandom support lgbt rights and are happy to wave the lgbt flag doesn't mean it's political and symbolic nature is not there. I have never said the message is the same.


- Re: The bolded bit. We can go in circles about this, because it appears you're having your own selective moral outcry about people being offended by this flag.

I do, the people raising a point about the flag are not the only persons who can be offended or have moral objections. I don't know if it's that selective though because so far I haven't really ever seen an issue come up relating to Dan and Phil that I feel the fandom at large hasn't blown out of proportion. Let me put in bold where i disagree.

The point is that the flag represents a moment in history people don't want to celebrate.
Well, that's not true as a general statement, as has been raised by someone on this page of the thread before. Many vets and older people in Russia celebrate the flag as a positive symbol. So do others outside Russia, be it that they are minorities. I personally don't celebrate the soviet flag at all, and I don't like to celebrate flags in general. But put as a general truth that is just false.

This isn't about the communist symbol. They're different things.

Again you want to state this as fact to arrive at the point that this flags needs to be some evil, insensitive symbol very different from the symbols you like but that statement just isn't true. As said before, the soviet flag often gets used to defend certain political thought systems too, by people who see it as a symbol of communism first or who like or defend certain aspects of the flag without the atrocities of the Soviet leadership which it also represents

And this isn't an internet thing. There are older people who don't want to see that flag. People living today whose relatives were murdered under that flag. Are you going to tell them they're not allowed to be offended by it just because you don't think it's worth being offended over?

Anybody is free to get offended about anything and i'm going to tell nobody what they are(n't) allowed to do. When I say the soviet flag is part of "internet culture" i'm not saying there aren't older people or people who have been murdered under that flag who don't like to see it. I was talking about how the soviet flag and many other symbols of communism often pop up in memes. Most of the times, the underlying message is quite critical of the assumptions made in communism or is used nonsensical as absurd humor, as is typical for a lot of memes.


Frankly, I think it's perfectly reasonable to want Dan and Phil to maybe avoid posing with something so representative of genocide. And I came into this thinking the opposite and having a personal connection to it.

Well, that's your perfectly reasonable right of course. I just put the flag on the same footing as many other flags.

You know some other flags that remind me of genocide? The US flag, which they drape around their bodies in a pinof video and didn't seem to draw the same ire. Why is that?
The genocide of the Native Americans is only one of many genocides you can link to that flag, death count many millions. Or here's an interesting one: the intervention of US troops in the Russian civil war featuring the Red armies against the reactionary whites and ... US troops fighting under the good ol' stars and stripes. Besides cutting off the grain supply in Murmansk, aiding in the starvation of many million Russians, historians agree it did little except cost thousands of additional lives and prolong a bloody civil war.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_in ... _Civil_War
If we want to limit ourselves to D&P tour destinations, we shouldn't forget to be offended by the genocide of more than 3 million people in the Philippine–American War. Not that the flag of the Philippines can't be associated with atrocities: a list of the killing of civilians and burning down of muslim villages is just a google search away.
Or here's another interesting flag: the flag of the republic of Liberia. Styled very much after the US flag - it also has a blue star and the red-white stripes. That shouldn't be to surprising given that Liberia was basically established by the US government, as a way to -depending on your views- get free blacks out of the South if you supported slavery or give them a better chance to build a future on the shores of Africa, if you were an abolitionist. That's some colorful history, so pick your evil: is the Liberian flag a symbol of slavery or would you rather associate it with the many genocides that were happening in the modern Liberia of the nineties?

"In the United States, there was a movement to resettle free-born blacks and freed slaves who faced racial discrimination in the form of political disenfranchisement, and the denial of civil, religious and social privileges in the United States.[17] Most whites and later a small cadre of black nationalists believed that blacks would face better chances for freedom in Africa than in the U.S.[8] The American Colonization Society was founded in 1816 in Washington, DC for this purpose, by a group of prominent politicians and slaveholders. But its membership grew to include mostly people who supported abolition of slavery. Slaveholders wanted to get free people of color out of the South, where they were thought to threaten the stability of the slave societies. Some abolitionists collaborated on relocation of free blacks, as they were discouraged by racial discrimination against them in the North and believed they would never be accepted in the larger society.[18] Most blacks, who were native-born by this time, wanted to work toward justice in the United States rather than emigrate.[8] Leading activists in the North strongly opposed the ACS, but some free blacks were ready to try a different environment."

Before you think i'm just out to get the US flag, here's some of the many other flags that represent terrible genocides.
If we're going to play the number game, we probably should condemn the Spanish flag first, since they are pretty much responsible for bringing the whole population in Central America to the brink of extinction. The Chinese have a rich national history of starving their own population or eradicating 'unwanted' populations. Mao is well known for the atrocities during his "cultural revolution", but really Chiang Kai-shek and the nationalists were just as barbaric, butchering strikers in Shanghai and mercilessly flooding hundreds of thousands of their own population. And they have their own flag, the flag of Taiwan - or is that the flag of China? Depends on who you ask. Symbol of oppression to mainland China, symbol of freedom to Taiwan.
I could go on for a whole while but really, it's hard to find a flag that isn't representing genocide in the eyes of some All flags are drenched in blood. However, they tend to represent more positive things to. Ideals, a sense of community, a political ideology. What's crystal clear to me though - and what any historian will say- is that the meaning we attach to flags is wholy dependent on personal politics and perspective.


-This could all be resolved if Dan and Phil just avoided posing with any symbolism they aren't educated on or are unfamiliar with. it's as simple as that. LGBTQ flag? They probably know plenty and are happy to take a pic. Soviet flag? Not... not so much. Nobody here is denouncing Dan and Phil or assuming they mean anything by this. It's also been noted that the girl did this to cause a bit of controversy (mission accomplished). So, what this comes down to is a suggestion to reconsider how they approach certain props.

I don't know why you think Dan and Phil are not knowledgeable of the Soviet flag but it's unlikely. They normally would have been taught about the flag and the USSR in school. Probably more objectively so than in US schools i might add, since school books don't get censored and politicized in the UK they way they get in the US. School boards vetting content about the civil war or evolution? Not something that's a common practice in the UK to my knowledge.
Dan is fairly interested in politics and well versed in (communist themed- memes) so really why do we insist that they must have not understood what this symbol meant? They posed with it and they didn't really seem get offended much so seems to me they just didn't find it objectionable the way some do.

Rather than assume their ignorance to protect their innocence, I find it perfectly reasonable to put this in perspective, take into account their intent and see the picture for what it is : a fan wanting to make a joke with them.
The atrocities of the USSR are many and their victims deserving of consideration, but that's not done by elevating the USSR flag to so special category of 'evil'. If Dan and Phil were waving the USSR flag with the intent to minimize the crimes of the soviet regime, i'd be shocked and outraged. This has nothing to do with that though, so I'd like to reserve my offense for the ongoing crimes of the current regime, regardless of flags.

[opendoor]

They really didn't censor much, if anyone was still under the impression they might. The differences I noticed are under the spoiler.

The stage set up was different (as has already been shown in a photo here) and they omitted the 'what's in Dan's box' segment, though I asked someone at the show and they speculated it might have been because of the language barrier. Dialogue wise, the only changes I noticed were:

- No joke about the lights being phallic, but that's because there were no lights on the stage.
- In the bar before the voiceover narration about what they don't do, Dan normally makes a joke about how they can't do some things because they're illegal or if not technically illegal then just awkward/messy/not polite to do on a stage. He left that out and replaced it with a line about how there are some things they just can't do, like ride in on an elephant.
- The Horse Prince simulation bit went to Dan instead of Phil this time, which to my knowledge is a first.
- Where he normally says, "Dan and Phil, super best friends and soulmates forever!" this time he just said "Dan and Phil, super best friends!"

What’s the horse prince simulation bit? I only have the general idea that it involves Dan dying in a womens bathroom and Phil making a deal with Satan.

It’s interesting he omitted ‘soulmates’. As they don’t appear to have had much cultural guidance I’m guessing that was a decision Dan made himself, so I’d be interested to know if it returns for the second Moscow show, or for future shows outside of Russia..

When they're introducing the simulation segment of the show, normally Phil usually loads it and something Horse Prince related shows up (someone who has seen the show can step in with a better description, but there's a neighing noise) and Phil acts embarrassed and panicked like it opened the wrong thing and says, "That's a personal project" or "That's my private simulation" or something along those lines. For the first time in the Russia show Dan said it was his private simulation.

It shows a photo of a horse body with Dan's head instead of a horses head with the words "ride me senpai" (I believe it says senpai). Funny it's Dan's secret project now.... wonder if it was still his face on the screen (probably). :mrgreen:

OMG I've never heard that before.
Well that's both super gay and super weird. Definitely further than I thought they'd go in a stageshow, colour me impressed.

[alittledizzy]

Russian fans are absolutely smashing it with the meet and greets. Some highlights from today:

[sapienveneficus]

Russian fans are absolutely smashing it with the meet and greets. Some highlights from today:

This one is my favorite! Dan looks genuinely offended,

[Philena]

Those are the literally the best, funniest sets of photos deppy has ever had at a m&g!

[hello9217]

They definitely are the best set of m&g photos so far.

[sugar]

definitely wondering about dan's earring, it'll be curious to see if it comes back when they return from russia. and if it does, is that a bit of a confirmation that the earring is a statement on his sexuality?

[honeybee]

If anything good has come of this, I've learnt a lot about Russia recently

Flag opinion under the spoiler tag for those who are interested

I find the points that @Stakhanov and @jve made very interesting and also think that a flag is a flag, no matter what it represents. People can be offended or not offended by any flag equally. Doesn't matter if it's a country or not, still 'exists as a place' or not. It doesn't matter. How 'bad' the thing that the flag represents differs between people (as we have seen here on idb). It's completely subjective and to suggest that one flag is objectively less bad than another doesn't make sense. You can of course give your reasons, but there will be reasons for the other side too.

For me, this is more an issue of "should deppy only pose with flags that represent things they personally agree with, or should they pose with whatever their fans want them to pose with?" That's the question that really interests me. If I were in their position, as someone who isn't particularly fond of communism (I know that the flag represents other things to other people too but this is what it means to me) I don't know what I would do, if I'm honest.

Edit to say the pics are

[knq]

One more cute M&G photo and a short video message:

Edit: also, these two guys we've been seeing lately.

[ratlad]

definitely wondering about dan's earring, it'll be curious to see if it comes back when they return from russia. and if it does, is that a bit of a confirmation that the earring is a statement on his sexuality?

hmm, maybe? but i'm not even sure what is stereotypically "gay" by Russia's standards. he does tend to switch it up a bit and he said he just likes the asymmetry so idk.

[Stakhanov]

If anything good has come of this, I've learnt a lot about Russia recently

Flag opinion under the spoiler tag for those who are interested

I find the points that @Stakhanov and @jve made very interesting and also think that a flag is a flag, no matter what it represents. People can be offended or not offended by any flag equally. Doesn't matter if it's a country or not, still 'exists as a place' or not. It doesn't matter. How 'bad' the thing that the flag represents differs between people (as we have seen here on idb). It's completely subjective and to suggest that one flag is objectively less bad than another doesn't make sense. You can of course give your reasons, but there will be reasons for the other side too.

For me, this is more an issue of "should deppy only pose with flags that represent things they personally agree with, or should they pose with whatever their fans want them to pose with?" That's the question that really interests me. If I were in their position, as someone who isn't particularly fond of communism (I know that the flag represents other things to other people too but this is what it means to me) I don't know what I would do, if I'm honest.

Edit to say the pics are

Yes i think that's an interesting question and I hope they only pose with symbols or act out scenes for pictures that they are comfortable with. I mean "comfortable" in the broadest sense though. They have the freedom to interpret what fans bring with them and ask for how they want. They probably don't believe in communism as a political ideology let alone the USSR as a state, but I think they are fine with it as a joke prop. I've wondered before if they are at always aware of the meaning of what fans at meet and greets ask for, it's just one long chain of very fast, almost industrial 30 second meetings.
Thinking about it, they didn't know what was being asked of them in at least one instance. Didn't Dan at one point discuss how they didn't really know at first what was expected with the dabbing? I remember him commenting on a series of funny pictures where he was reliving the trauma of standing in a very silly position first and both of them only realizing after a couple of meet&greets what they were supposed to do :mrgreen:

Dam those interpreters. I saw the the pic on the meetinphan account and at first thought they were real fans just visiting the show. Finally two guys who are both older than me and just as much trash as I am

Dan liking the his earring for the "asymmetry" is pretty funny. This is the same guy who will refuse to add anything to the sims house if it's not symmetric. Worst thing is I completely understand him and I feel just the same about a earring in one ear looking good but symmetry being holy in designing houses (in the Sims)

[missemma]

This is from a m&g video where Dan goes to hug the fan and hits Phil by accident. I am living for Phil’s eyebrow raise and “okay” haha! He looks pissed

Original video:

[liola]

This is from a m&g video where Dan goes to hug the fan and hits Phil by accident. I am living for Phil’s eyebrow raise and “okay” haha! He looks pissed

Original video:

I've had it in loop for the past 5 minutes, Phil looks SO PISSED, i'm living

[missemma]

I've had it in loop for the past 5 minutes, Phil looks SO PISSED, i'm living

So am I, it’s given me so much amusement tonight his eyebrow raise and the okay under his breath, it’s just too funny. Do you think that’s the expression he gives when he sees something he doesn’t like online, before the angry DM gets sent. Combine this with the Sims ending - lol I am living for fed up Phil

[phantastically-avg]

I'm loving the M&G photos from today - especially nice given we haven't seen their faces as much as usual due to the SM break.

Jumping off topic to something that happened a while back - does anyone remember what video/ls it was that Phil (or Dan?) mentioned that the gaming channel room was meant to be the AP room but he gave it up because the gaming channel needed more space? I need it to know for... reasons.

[hello9217]

I'm loving the M&G photos from today - especially nice given we haven't seen their faces as much as usual due to the SM break.

Jumping off topic to something that happened a while back - does anyone remember what video/ls it was that Phil (or Dan?) mentioned that the gaming channel room was meant to be the AP room but he gave it up because the gaming channel needed more space? I need it to know for... reasons.

Around 25:28 of Phil's Beauty Tips liveshow.

[alittledizzy]

I'm not going to put this under a spoiler because it's not something I imagine he'll say again, given how specific to Russia it is, but I really loved this quote from him from the second Moscow show.

This is the thing - people, they always stereotype countries based on stupid stuff that you read on the internet or you hear in the news and people are always like - you know, it’s the same, people are like - what are British people like, what are Americans like, ew Americans- Russian people- and it’s like, we met all of you and you’re all so nice! We just want you to know, okay, that we’ve come here and we’ve seen all of you and the Russia that we’ve seen - which is all of you here - we love it. So thank you. We appreciate that.