Dan & Phil Part 52: And They Were Roommates

[Susanisnotafish]

A controversial opinion: am I strange in wanting deppy to not come out as a romantic couple? I feel like the way they are now helps set an example of a healthy relationship, friendship to otherwise. And it helps me personally see that there's no clear line of what you can do in a friendship. It's also refreshing to see representation of two non-straight people in a relationship that's not romantic, because I think people always assume that if you're queer, friends with another queer person, you guys have to be screwing each other. Deppy set a really good example of all these things and I feel like their relationship would lose so much value and meaning if they came out. Not even going to mention the personal negatives they might experience, but the audience too would lose something valuable. (Again this is just the opinion of some kid who knows nothing frantically exploring the internet after finding out there's more beyond China's firewall)

This is something I've considered quite a bit tbh. Similarly to what randomthoughts said, I sometimes think that maybe they aren't even quite sure about the dynamics of their relationship. That maybe the reason we see them in this weird, romantic-platonic limbo is because that's what it is. That maybe all they know is that they're #1 in eachothers lives and that's okay, they don't need to label it. (thats like the cheesiest sentence I've ever written). I do usually lean towards the idea that they are together romantically, though I definitely wouldn't be surprised if this was the case.

This is actually something I've seen before but never in a context where I felt comfortable asking the question that always comes to my mind immediately. So I'm gonna ask it here, and I'm definitely not trying to be aggressive, it's genuine curiosity: for people who think they have some vague not romantic connection, do you think the vday video was really a prank gone bad and that their idea of a joke was faking a queer relationship for a barely-existent fanbase? Or do you think (since it did directly reference sex and kissing) they've been having sex for eight years but never clarified the romantic part?

Could I get a clarification on whether the vday vid did actually reference sex? I thought the closest references to sex were

"funny times in my bed" and "so much cherry"?

Edit: told myself I'd never add one of the obligatory "oh no top of the page posts" but this is just too funny that my first time top of page is me being a terrible person and asking about THE VIDEO!

[thephandommenace]

Wow, you need to calm down. Why talk to me like I'm not well-versed in this topic? News flash: I'm severely mentally ill too, that's why I care. And to answer your question with another one - do you think it's fair to make depression seem relatable and funny? Do you think it's fair to talk about social awkwardness so much that your followers begin to think it's the same thing as social anxiety? I'm just saying that a neurotypical person has no right to make fun out of mental illness and make it relatable and

sigh, I'm ugly and depressed lol

. Mental illness is serious and life-ruining and so many other things, I hate how it's reduced to a meme but hey, it's a coping mechanism. But you don't fucking use your platform with thousands of people watching to go on and on about lol, relatable mental illness when you never actually offer these people any support - why not include links in the description to mental health charities? - and have never told anyone that you're mentally ill. No, Alex, I don't wanna hear about the pills you swallow just like you don't wanna hear about the hospitals I've been to. But what I wanna hear from Dan? Something subtle, something "us mentally ill people" "so you know I got that social anxiety and I'm a twelve foot giraffe" - is that too much to want out of someone who's woven symptoms of mental illness into his branding? Do you know what kinda messages it sends to young people who don't have much knowledge of mental illness and begin to think these symptoms are funny or normal, because hey, Dan's laughing about it and so is everyone else.

Lmao, "you can't queerbait if you're queer" - that's your opinion, but not the one everyone in the community accepts.

Damn, I'm so annoyed at this response. We could've kept it civil but you had to start yelling at me like I'm so ignorant about queer rights and mental illness? You had to be blunt and disgusting about your personal mental illness, like I don't know what it's like? Do me a favour and look up body dysmorphic disorder and tell me why I shouldn't be pissed that Dan did a comedy short with Anthony where he told him to critise his appearance.

Feel free to ban me or whatever, I'm just.... wow. I'ma go get a drink of water

I didn't find nephilimcat's post nearly as angry as you seemed to but that's beside the point. If their post came across as sensitive, maybe it's because people's expectations of making Deppy's sexualities/mental health states explicit are ludicrous and harmful to LGBTQ+ people and people who suffer from mental health issues.

Is it fair to make depression relatable and funny? I'm a firm believer that you can joke about anything, even sad things like illness and depression, as long as you don't make the victims the butt of the joke. And whether it's social anxiety or feeling hopeless, Dan's humour has brought a lot of people together and helped them make light of something that normally brings them down. You may not agree and be particularly sensitive to it and not find it funny, which I can understand. But making jokes about it and making it not such a big deal to talk about can also help people feel less ashamed about their mental health, especially if they see other people living with it but being able to laugh about it. So I think it helps that Dan makes it #relatable. It isn't othered into this strange, sad, scary thing, but something that's a part of himself that he has to deal with. And other people who have depression/anxiety don't feel so alone. In my opinion.

Re queerbaiting - queerbaiting literally means baiting queer people to believe you're queer. If you ARE queer, how can you queerbait people? Are you confusing queerbaiting with shipbaiting? And idk if you expect them to kiss on camera or something or explicitly say 'I'm queer' but talking about their attraction to men and being close to each other is not queerbaiting.

[realeyesrealize]

No, he doesn't have to explain his sexuality to us. He literally does not have to do that. You cannot be queer and queerbaiting. You aren't queerbaiting because you are queer. If Dan says he likes men, guess what, he is not straight. And he does not have to say anything else because it is crystal clear what he means, even without a label. Just because you are queer does not mean you have to be an activist either. Queer people have every right to stay silent about their sexuality, not go to pride or only share as much as they feel comfortable because you are putting yourself into a vulnerable position. This includes rich people with a huge following like Dan and Phil as well. There are so many reasons not to be (fully) open about your sexuality or at least not to make a big deal out of it and all of them are valid.

Thank you so much for saying this. *clicks imaginary thanks button*

Now, as someone who is also lesbian and also active within my local community, one of the first things I learned is that LGBTQ+ people don't owe anyone shit. If you consider yourself part of the community, then congratulations! you're part of the community. Whatever you do afterwards, it's completely and only up to you. Whether you're an activist, or simply out, or in the closet because of safety reasons or just because you don't want to share this part of you with certain people/anyone, that's fucking valid. This applies to DnP, as well.

Telling people they should "have the courage to stand up for who they are" is such a toxic mentality, especially when applied to LGTBQ+ peeps (and let's not talk about how devastating & invalidating that phrase can be to closeted people, who are not in the position to be out because of any reason). All in all, let's just respect DnP sharing as much or as little as they want to share sexuality wise (because, once again, they don't owe us shit) and let's not bash them for dealing with these matters however the fuck they please and deem necessary to.

[apathy]

I can kind of pretend to live vicariously through them now in this limbo state, but chances seem higher that they're just another typical boring romantic-type couple so I try not to get too attached to the idea. But I mean, good for what makes them happy or whatever.

However, I find it a bit mean to call a romantic relationship "boring". It's similar to when people a few pages back expressed their wishful thinking of Dan being non-binary. Dan is what Dan is and not what would suit someone's personal needs of a rolemodel. After all, isn't the whole LGBTQ+ movement about being yourself, and not about being what others project onto you?

I was the one who wrote this, so just wanted to say I put in the laughing emoji because I was completely joking with that part and hoped it would make that clear that it wasn't at all serious. Sorrry if you or anyone was confused/offended. I was actually trying to point out that i'm aware they're not here for my own imagination and that's fine, it was just in a silly way.

Also +1 to not swearing out of choice, because it's not actually required to prove you're mature / adult or whatever. I don't swear and I'm older than Phil, and I'm not around kids. There are plenty of other aspects you can critique to support your points without this one.

[flarequake]

gohomohowell, I didn't know anything of your experience with mental illness before you just said it so other people probably didn't know either, and just had a different view.

I do think Phil not swearing is separate from the rest of the cute persona. There are gaming YouTubers who do Minecraft and know kids watch them so they don't swear, but they're not necessarily cute about it (tbh I haven't watched them to know, I saw them on the women in gaming SITC panel in 2015). His gaming video intros are kinda cute, I guess, and Dan still does that reaction, but they have toned it down a lot, Phil is more adult/cheeky sometimes, and I love to see it. There are kids TV presenters of all ages who act cute and it's not creepy, but these guys aren't specifically that.

I also don't think Dan's whole branding is around mental illness. He's always put himself across as socially awkward so "lol this happened I'm such a fail" and that's all self-deprecating, but I don't think that's mental illness. His jokes about wanting death sound deeper or just different than existentialism and I'm not sure how serious he is about feeling like that or how it goes across to his younger audience. I'm not a huge fan of those jokes in light of losing my dad. He's only recently said he has social anxiety. The years of "lol, awkward" and all the times he's said "it's just a joke" is all lighthearted and maybe to keep people from knowing there was more to it because he isn't comfortable being that open.

[malday]

I think qpr's aren't appreciated enough! I think even if you're not ace/aro it's completely plausible to have a qpr as well right? It always feel constricting to have a relationship categorised as romantic or platonic, because there are definitely more variations than that!

I think the boys from Superfruit are a good example of a great and close friendship between two queer people, if you are looking for one.

[quercussp]

Just wanted to add to the swearing discussion: I am 23 and I have never sweared out loud in my entire life (and maybe 3 or 4 times in writing, and I censored it). Use of swearwords isn't what makes you an adult. I also think that most (not all, but most) of the "innocent sweet Phil persona" comes from the fans, and not from him. There was a discussion a while back of how people treat Phil as though he is a innocent 12 year old, when it's OBVIOUSLY not the case.

I also agree with many people hear that said that Dan's branding doesn't seem to be around mental illness. His "I want death" jokes annoy me too, but I wouldn't go as far as to say that he exploits mental health issues.

[nephilimcat]

It also seems like Dan gets away with so much shit on a "maybe". You know, "let's not call Dan out for his glorification of mental illness and how he profits of it by making it his branding because, huh, maybe he's mentally ill himself!". "Let's not call Dan out on queerbaiting becuase, huh, maybe he's in a relationship with Phil!"

God bless you for saying this tbh. This is something thats always lowkey irritated me, especially the longer it drags on. Like we get it, you're the ~king of ambiguity~, but I feel like in this case, trying to be ambiguous can definitely give people the wrong idea. For example with the mental illness thing, I feel like if you're going to joke about as a form of coping, you have to clarify that you're using it for coping with your own mental illness, especially if you're in a position where you're profiting off your jokes about it like he does. Otherwise, it's just blatant pandering and exploitation.
And for hypothetical purposes, let's say by the tiniest chance that he's straight, never dated Phil and isn't mentally ill. If that's somehow true, he has dug himself far too deep into a hole he can never get out of. At this point, if he ever decides to say anything other than that he's queer & mentally ill, hooooly heckity are so many people gonna be peeved off (me included) because he's lead so many people to believe otherwise, and has built a career off of making people believe otherwise.
edit: apologies if this is an incoherent disaster its 4:30 am and im half dead

I'm glad you agree It's just such a grey area and really, Dan must know about it. He must know that he's taking full advantage of being so private that he can say shit without anyone being able to say one way or the other whether he's wrong to do so or not. Like, from the point of view of my sister, who is lesbian and quite involved in the community, she and a lot of others in the community view Dan and Phil as annoying queerbaiters who don't have the courage to stand up for who they are (or aren't) and rather make constant references to having male attraction that would go unnoticed by casual fans, but applauded by stans and used to keep them interested.

That's another maybe - "Dan makes constant references to liking guys, but huh, maybe he doesn't like labels so shut up and don't label hiM!!!! yoURE WRONG HE CAN'T BE QUEERBIAITNGN`!!"

Which is.... funny because you can be queer and still queerbait. You know, drop a few liners about your attraction to guys and have the fetishizing fangirls lap it up while you don't actually use your platform to help the LGBTQIA+ community or confirm that you're in it at all. (If Dan doesn't like labels, good for him, but it'd be nice if you told us that explicitly )

Wow, I'm being such a cynical bitch Also, your post was good and very coherant!!

No, he doesn't have to explain his sexuality to us. He literally does not have to do that. You cannot be queer and queerbaiting. You aren't queerbaiting because you are queer. If Dan says he likes men, guess what, he is not straight. And he does not have to say anything else because it is crystal clear what he means, even without a label. Just because you are queer does not mean you have to be an activist either. Queer people have every right to stay silent about their sexuality, not go to pride or only share as much as they feel comfortable because you are putting yourself into a vulnerable position. This includes rich people with a huge following like Dan and Phil as well. There are so many reasons not to be (fully) open about your sexuality or at least not to make a big deal out of it and all of them are valid.

And as a mentally ill person: are you really telling me I have to announce that to everyone when I make jokes? I do not feel comfortable talking about my depression and anxiety outside the anonymity of the Internet but I do feel comfortable making jokes about being depressed, death and the like. I don't want to put myself into a position where I have to tell people exactly what my medical conditions are and which pills I swallow because they are none of their business! And does this mean I am not allowed to make the jokes because someone could hear it who does not know about my mental health? I don't think so.

Wow, you need to calm down. Why talk to me like I'm not well-versed in this topic? News flash: I'm severely mentally ill too, that's why I care. And to answer your question with another one - do you think it's fair to make depression seem relatable and funny? Do you think it's fair to talk about social awkwardness so much that your followers begin to think it's the same thing as social anxiety? I'm just saying that a neurotypical person has no right to make fun out of mental illness and make it relatable and

sigh, I'm ugly and depressed lol

. Mental illness is serious and life-ruining and so many other things, I hate how it's reduced to a meme but hey, it's a coping mechanism. But you don't fucking use your platform with thousands of people watching to go on and on about lol, relatable mental illness when you never actually offer these people any support - why not include links in the description to mental health charities? - and have never told anyone that you're mentally ill. No, Alex, I don't wanna hear about the pills you swallow just like you don't wanna hear about the hospitals I've been to. But what I wanna hear from Dan? Something subtle, something "us mentally ill people" "so you know I got that social anxiety and I'm a twelve foot giraffe" - is that too much to want out of someone who's woven symptoms of mental illness into his branding? Do you know what kinda messages it sends to young people who don't have much knowledge of mental illness and begin to think these symptoms are funny or normal, because hey, Dan's laughing about it and so is everyone else.

Lmao, "you can't queerbait if you're queer" - that's your opinion, but not the one everyone in the community accepts.

Damn, I'm so annoyed at this response. We could've kept it civil but you had to start yelling at me like I'm so ignorant about queer rights and mental illness? You had to be blunt and disgusting about your personal mental illness, like I don't know what it's like? Do me a favour and look up body dysmorphic disorder and tell me why I shouldn't be pissed that Dan did a comedy short with Anthony where he told him to critise his appearance.

First of all, I did not yell at you, I just wrote down my thoughts. And granted, I was annoyed when I responded but I did not insult you or claim you were ignorant? I don't think you have bad intentions or an ignorant point of view, I see where you're coming from and that you have your valid reasons for thinking the way you do. But you did say that Dan should at least disclose that he is mentally ill and what his sexuality is/that he does not want to be labeled for him to be allowed to make those jokes and talk about his attraction to men, which is just not something I can agree with because there are so many reasons why he wouldn't want or can't do that.

I certainly did not try to attack you. I was reading your post and saw how you made statements that I cannot agree with, so I responded. Maybe the mental illness part was a bit too emotional because I am very sensitive when it comes to that topic and a bit hot-headed. If I wasn't, I would not have responded at all because of my anxiety, which would have been better, I guess. But I was really not in any way attacking you and I'm sorry that you felt that way as that was not my intention.

To answer your questions: no, I do not think it's fair to make depression seem relatable and funny on purpose. I agree that a neurotypical person has no right to make fun of mental illnesses. And if Dan is in fact not struggling with one, then I am not okay with everything he has said so far.
But I also don't think that it's fair to want him to be open about why he makes those jokes. And neither do I think it's fair to expect him to link to mental health sites or be honest about his own mental health - even if he profits from these jokes and makes it seem like a funny thing. I think he tries to be funny because that's his way of coping and I relate to that a lot. Now, I see the difference between the two of us, as I don't have a huge following (or any following to be precise) and he does. I also see why it can be problematic because of that. You do have to be more careful how you word things and what you're saying when you have a following, which I think he tries to do.
However, it's certainly not Dan's fault that some of his viewers see his portrayal as a socially awkward person as the same thing as social anxiety. He never called it social anxiety when he made those sketches. And with the existential crisis: he certainly did struggle with that and I think with one video (I think it was his "The Meaning of Life" one?), he tried to be a bit more real and helpful without actually mentioning his own mental health, which he may had or still has not really figured out.
Now, I don't like when some of his viewers joke about having an existential crisis when they really don't have one. On the other hand, I think the way he talks about it is helpful to some. I quite like that he tries to be funny instead of making a deep sit-down video while crying (I'm not saying that's what you expect him to do). If he really does not struggle with this stuff, I think it would not be okay, but I personally don't believe that's the case.

As I said, I see where you're coming from and I get why you don't like him making some of the jokes he does. And that's perfectly valid. I just don't think making those jokes means you have to disclose even the tiniest bit of your mental state. And that was my point that I didn't seem to get across. You still say that you want him to say something like "us mentally ill people" and I get why you would want that but he really doesn't have to do that. It's not an easy thing to do and nobody should expect him to say that.

Now, I really didn't intend to fight with you or come across as someone who thinks you are a bad, ignorant person. I don't think that and never did. I simply disagreed and wanted to give my opinion but it seems like I didn't manage that as well as I thought

[rainbow-chaido]

Hello people of IDB, I generally lurk, but those last posts made me want to come out of my cave.

Firstly, I loooove the fact that we are having a discussion about Deppy's relationship not exclusively in terms of romantic/platonic. It makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside, because I've felt the confusion myself (in my relationships), and the "pressure" to label something that is clearly unclear. Them being unconventional would set a great paradigm and would bring joy to certain people (including myself). On the other hand, them confirming it's romantic could also mean that those relationships can evolve and fit into society's standards in their own way, so I'm torn on the subject.

On another note, Phil's persona does not intrigue me as much as Dan's because it doesn't really leave room for much speculation, but I can't help but admiring the way he is a poker face all by himself. Dan's recent transparency (in comparison to the past of course) has been a fun roller coaster, and I've only been here a while. I can't imagine how older fans must feel after all these changes. Sometimes I think about their management and Deppy's meticulous planning and I get sad, because I know probably almost none of their behavior is 100% real. I'd like to be wrong though.

Also, do you think Dan will still pop up at Phil's liveshow, or was that in case he missed his own?

[bookfiend]

RE:the swearing discussion, rude jokes and Phil's persona. It makes sense to my why he chooses to present himself in a certain way. Some of D&P's youngest fans (tweens and kids) are technically young enough to be his kids. Ya know if he'd had them young. And he seems to be aware of the younger side of the audience.
(Sorry there's so much in this thread so I cannot find who said it first) I also agree that it's better to compare them to presenters then actors or even reality stars and they have worked as presenters for years. What you're watching is them but it's only part of them as they are still to an extent performing when on camera.

Also I have noticed that he tends to make rude/sex jokes quite frequently, especially on the Gaming Channel but as with everything else Phil says male attraction or his fondness for Dan for example it tends to get brushed under the rug or treated like he doesn't understand what he's doing.

I think the whole innocently saying something crude or ridiculous is half him having a ditzy moment and not realising what he's just said until it's pointed out. (Something I recall being his personality even as far back as PINOF1 "wheel for a foot" anyone?) And the other half is him doing it on purpose to wind Dan up, because he always laughs when Dan overreacts or is whining. On the gaming channel he's always saying random words when annoyed or frustrated by the game. A technique I use to avoid actually swearing at work because I have the worst potty mouth.

Perhaps, as with everything in this fandom it's the audience not noticing how frequently Phil does something because he doesn't yell about it like Dan does? Though I've noticed people on this site don't have this problem as much as sites like Tumblr do.

[AroboticPhil]

hi, new poster here (after lurking for a while)!

I enjoyed the new video a lot, it was really cute and if their secret project doesn't involve them releasing a How To Make Your Dream House documentary featuring business expert!Phil and whiny, perfectionist!Dan, I'm probably gonna unstan. I live vicariously through their rich asses being able to afford whatever they want.

I was also wondering, I feel like most youtubers -even when they don't have a proper uploading schedule- like to let their viewers know precisely when a video is gonna be uploaded?
A lot of creators I follow often tweet about the day and even time they're gonna release something but DnP seem to do the exact opposite, they're always so vague and people often expect videos on some days for there to be none...
I don't know if it's just an impression, if they suck at their jobs, or if it's a part of their very 'private' way of working (as opposed to like, tomska's level of transparency) ?

[magnolia]

i used to post here quite consistently (for someone not used to message boards). i loved it. the atmosphere, the bants. the only thing that changed really was my love for deppy. im at a point where im beginning to DISLIKE dan. literally. i dont know how or when it happened, but i do think i know why.

they both are so ... contrived. it irks me. it's like they've settled so comfortably in their roles i can almost predict the jokes. its boring, and lackluster.
phil: says smthin relatively normal
dan: *face* lets move past that

dan: screams
dan: dumb tumblr joke
phil: ridiculous tweet that sounds like it was curated for an audience. which it was but cmon man, showing ur personality beyond food and clumsiness wont kill you.

theyre ridiculously boring at this point. i dont even care if they're together. if they fuck and dont speak about it in the morning. i used to ponder these things seriously, and i couldnt care less anymore. they've become boring. honestly. shake things up. be honest. not bc u owe it to us, but because its more entertaining than the god awful 'phil doesn't know what a dildo is, hes actually a child!' such falseties and pretenses its annoying. as hell.

sorry to change the mood or whatnot the only post i read encouraged lurkers to post and just drop their 2 cents. i dont care for them anymore. i like humans. not programmed bots.

and i needed a place to vent all this out. ahh relief lmao

I'm pretty sure every person who has stayed in this fandom for some time feels this way to some degree. To be completely honest, I cannot say I genuinely enjoy their content anymore. I find them cute, but that's really it, like watching a good friend of yours posting themselves doing something funny on twitter. And I think this is the key of the discussion. Youtubers are liked because the audience almost 100% become attached to their personality, not their content. Increasingly more traditional celebrities are like this too, but most Youtubers are different in that, let's be honest, they only have personality. They're not exactly providing top-notch entertainment. Their content relies completely on exposing and exploiting their personal lives and possess little quality in itself. To repeat myself, this means that the fans latch on completely to the personalities and their lives, to a much too invasive and unusual degree, that the Youtubers automatically become our "pseudo-friends". We come to expect, whether consciously or not, for them to be completely authentic and honest and open with us, because they've literally become our close "friends", someone that we feel like we have the right to intimately know about and should personally care about. This is how Youtubers make it, this is what they're about.

I don't know how many of you know about Japan's most popular Youtuber, Hajime Shacho (はじめしゃちょー), who was enjoying incredible popularity and success before he was caught cheating early this year on his girlfriend. A lot of people do still watch him, but obviously loads of people have unstanned, and most of them are probably people who used to be in his core fanbase, because they're the people who actually care if he's cheating or not. This is significant, because with most traditional celebrities you can have a lot of people who think a person's ingenuine but still love them for their movies or songs or shows or whatever, but with Youtubers they only have who they are as a person, and their relationships with other people. To fans who love them they're not "entertainers", they're "good [internet friends] I extremely care about and wish for them to be happy and have a good life". That's important. And like with other good friends we have, they can make bad career decisions, they can become less talkative or interesting, they can even do some questionable things, but unless they prove themselves to be two-faced shitheads who are not even close to what we imagine them to be, most of us will still care about them and want to know what's going on in their lives.

And so, I agree that they have no obligation to be completely honest with us, but I totally understand emotionally why people want them to, because that's their selling point. That's what they put up an image of doing. That's why they're popular and liked, because we feel like we're watching two genuine people's lives. And once that feels compromised, it is easily understandable why people would feel hugely upset about it.

Also re: the mental illness discussion, I feel like it's more our generation's fault as a whole for normalizing and popularizing depressing humor that involves actual mental illnesses. I actually don't find Dan's content particularly dangerous or problematic at all, probably only because literally the entire internet does it too.

[liola]

I think qpr's aren't appreciated enough! I think even if you're not ace/aro it's completely plausible to have a qpr as well right? It always feel constricting to have a relationship categorised as romantic or platonic, because there are definitely more variations than that!

I think the boys from Superfruit are a good example of a great and close friendship between two queer people, if you are looking for one.

Not really adding anything to the discussion because on mobile it's hard to write a long response..just wanted to say that Scott and Mitch are very very far from being a queer platonic relationship example. They literally dated and still imply to this day that they kiss and have sex. Literally the title song of their new EP is about their relationship being undefined.

Wait is this off-topic I'm not sure

[alittledizzy]

Their schedule started making a lot more sense when I realize they treat it like their job is three channels - not that they have a channel each, and then a side project gaming channel. I don't think two videos a week is unreasonable, if they're keeping that up; I don't know if they wore me down or what but I'm now accepting that in that two-a-week schedule only maybe once every other month will that include a Dan video, and probably only once a month will it include a Phil video.

I do think there's no reason for them not to be making more gaming videos, though. I give more leeway to the pressure of main channel videos as long as they are making regular gaming videos. But there's a point where I just get frustrated with their lack of time management, and that point is one video a week when they're also talking about playing video games (privately) nonstop and telling us what entire series tv show they've just finished watching in the span of a week. If you're moving, great. If you're building a house, great. If you've got a secret project going, great. But figure out your damn schedule so you can still get at least a minimum of videos up.

I'm gonna reach back a little and quote fancybum from the previous thread, because it seems super relevant to the current discussion about robo-Phil:

Back to RepressionBot: again, I say all of this with love and acceptance. Usually. I can't speak for actual Phil Lester because that man is mostly a stranger to me, but I believe it's fair to say that AmazingPhil is pretty repressed- otherwise he's quite emotionally shallow if this is all there is. But that's by design, that's how he wants it. People like to think of Phil as the sunshine (gag. just for the record.) and Dan as the dark whatever, but for the purposes of this upcoming pretentious metaphor, when it comes to being personal or vulnerable, Dan's the one who is sometimes too bright to look at and it's Phil who we squint at in the darkness, looking for a glow or glimmer of something. But he won't be any more forthcoming or emotional with us as he would be with a cashier or a waiter. It's all breezy and friendly, some jokes, some puns, until the transaction is over and he can go home and swear at Mario Kart and get his fuck on and sleep god knows where- all things that the cashier or cab driver or dentist or you or me have no need to be privy to, as far as Phil is concerned. Because he's in grandma-mode, best behaviour mode, when dealing with strangers. There is an intentional, and consistent, divide between us because that's how he's most comfortable. He doesn't seem to need or want more than that. So people expecting much more will always be disappointed (but hey it's totally understandable to want more; I'm in that boat. it's got a hole in it).

I think the choice to differentiate what version of yourself you're giving to what audience (big or small scale) is actually a really adult move; I know I sure as hell do it. I think the boldness to be blunt and open and honest with everyone no matter who you're talking to is something you grow out of when you begin to realize it's actually pretty damn inconvenient to not compartmentalize versions of yourself. My boss doesn't need to see the version of me that my best friends see and someone I bump into that I went to school with ten years ago doesn't need to see casual!me or professional!me, they just get the facebook-friendly version. If I were addressing a casual audience of twenty thousands or so you can sure as hell bet they wouldn't even get facebook-friendly, they'd get carefully cultivated to give away nothing, hey wow look at this plant and stop asking me about my sexuality me. (Also to RiriPandaHeart2, who already basically said this.)

And I do think that most people would agree. Which is why it really comes off more like people are just asking him to be a better actor and pretend so well we don't realize he's pretending. But, like... lets face it... he's a pretty crap actor. (And personally I think I appreciate more realizing that there's a boundary drawn, as opposed to thinking I have the real Phil talking to me for an hour every Thursday and in reality the real Phil is nothing like that.)

Quoting some other people that I just generally agree with under the spoiler.

Like every adult couple I've ever met, they don't give a fuck about the bedroom because it's just where they sleep and the rest of the house is the only thing that matters, because that's where they spend their days.

Also, do you expect every YouTuber to open up about their lives? When you watch people like Dodie or Tom who wear their hearts on their sleeve and talk about personal topics it is a very jarring contrast to the 'curated' images of most big vloggers. But they also have a tendency to overshare and misstep boundaries, and other YouTubers may feel pressured to share parts of their lives in order to form a 'real' connection with their audience. But there's still that creator/viewer divide.

No, he doesn't have to explain his sexuality to us. He literally does not have to do that. You cannot be queer and queerbaiting. You aren't queerbaiting because you are queer. If Dan says he likes men, guess what, he is not straight. And he does not have to say anything else because it is crystal clear what he means, even without a label. Just because you are queer does not mean you have to be an activist either. Queer people have every right to stay silent about their sexuality, not go to pride or only share as much as they feel comfortable because you are putting yourself into a vulnerable position. This includes rich people with a huge following like Dan and Phil as well. There are so many reasons not to be (fully) open about your sexuality or at least not to make a big deal out of it and all of them are valid.

And having said all of that, it seems so unnecessary to even worry about whether dnp are 'queer baiting' at this point because it's so obvious to me that they're not. If you can ignore all the many times they (especially Dan, but Phil as well albeit to a lesser/more subtle extent) have made it pretty clear that they are into dudes then you're playing yourself lmao.

Same goes for the mental health argument of course - in my view, Dan has been quite brave in live-shows this year, stating he has mental health issues, talking about social anxiety and discussing what specific scenarios/situations make his mental health worse/better. He has also said that dark humour is a coping mechanism for him - he does not ever have to share any details at all about his mental health if he doesn't want to, and to expect him to is honestly so entitled. I love that he's felt comfortable sharing even the tidbits he has, but I would never expect that of him.

I'm actually surprised at how few people brought up that in 2017 Dan literally has named specific mental health issues. Saying "I have social anxiety" should be enough to stop people thinking he's pretending for the views, unless what's now required is submitting official diagnosis paperwork to phandom before he's allowed.

[hello9217]

I'm starting a new conspiracy theory and that is deppy are going to be on one of those home remodeling shows and it's set to air in October.

[Birdie]

Why are there so many queerbaiting discussions lately? I mean, we’ve always had them but it comes up like once a week lately. Like, I don't personally mind the discussions because a lot of interesting stuff gets brought up but I'm wondering why the discussions are happening so frequently lately? Is it their behaviour towards each other or just the general climate within the phandom?

It also seems like Dan gets away with so much shit on a "maybe". You know, "let's not call Dan out for his glorification of mental illness and how he profits of it by making it his branding because, huh, maybe he's mentally ill himself!". "Let's not call Dan out on queerbaiting becuase, huh, maybe he's in a relationship with Phil!"

These aren’t maybes though. Dan has openly said that he has social anxiety so that question is cleared. Also whether or not Dan is not straight doesn’t hinge on whether or not he’s with Phil. He has made pretty clear that he isn’t straight in the past few weeks/months and who he’s dating or if he’s dating anyone at all doesn’t matter.

I also don't think Phil has backed himself into a corner. It's pretty clear he likes the image he has and the kind of videos he makes and so do I even though I'm closer to his age than the age of many of his fans. Watching Phil is nice, guys. It's relaxing, soothing even, no bad surprises, just nice sweet content to pick you up and I think that's exactly what Phil wants to contribute to Youtube and that's okay. Phil's channel is a bit of a safe space, no unpleasant surprises, and I think people don't appreciate that enough.

Like, to be very honest, all these discussions regarding Phil's age and maturity level freak me out. There is no set age to "grow up" and drop everything you used to like when you were younger. That's not how it works. Can I also say I don't like it when people equate Phil not swearing to Phil being immature? You don't have to swear or be overly edgy or sexual to be mature. Phil has preserved his love for cute stuff and he generally comes across as more soft and wholesome but I don't think that's a sign of immaturity.

Like, from the point of view of my sister, who is lesbian and quite involved in the community, she and a lot of others in the community view Dan and Phil as annoying queerbaiters who don't have the courage to stand up for who they are (or aren't) and rather make constant references to having male attraction that would go unnoticed by casual fans, but applauded by stans and used to keep them interested.

No Full offence but lgbtq people who think like this... nah, get away from me. Queer people should stick together and be understanding of others not wanting to fully come out. I really hate the rethoric that if you won't come out, you must be a coward or whatever. Forcing someone to come out before you accept them as part of the community is wrong, really, really wrong and in my book it's not much better than straight people forcing lgbtq people to stay in the closet. It's the same thing: You're taking away someone's right to decide for themselves how they want to live their lives and you're telling them you won't accept them if they don't do what you think they should do. It needs to stop. Communities are supposed to be safe spaces for all lgbtq people, no strings attached.

Being an activist or helping out the community is not some kind of requirement you have to fulfill when you're lgbtq. Being straight doesn't come with any such strings attached, so why should being queer? Just please let lgbtq people live their lives, guys. If they want to come out, be activists and dedicate their free time to helping the big cause, great, I appreciate that. But if they just want to live their lives in peace then that's fine too. No queer person has any obligation to come out and put their happiness and sometimes their life in danger to help the community out, no famous queer person is obligated to use their platform to do so either. We as a community just really need to accept when other lgbtq people just want to be happy best they can and don't want to get mixed up in any of this. The lgbtq community can be so entitled sometimes and it sucks. But yeah, we're not entitled to any famous lgbtq person's support of our cause or anything just because they happen to be lgbtq.

(I just saw captainspacecoat's post and she literally said what I wanted to say a lot better!)

Lmao, "you can't queerbait if you're queer" - that's your opinion, but not the one everyone in the community accepts.

No, it actually just goes against the very definition of queerbaiting. Queerbaiting is when creators pretend there's something queer happening to get queer people, who are starved for representation, invested in their programme/books/Youtube channels only to do a 180 later on and gaslight their queer audience by going: "What? You silly people, this was never meant to be queer, everyone on my programme is 100% straight!" That's queerbaiting. A real living breathing queer person cannot do that. They just can't.

(I'm sorry I quoted you thrice for this mini rant, gohomohowell. I don't want to attack you, I just don't agree with what you've said.)

[relatablemood]

Looking back at everything I said now, I came off really harsh and I apologise for that, a lot. It wasn't fair and I probably misconstrued what nephilimcat intended. There's a lesson not to start shit about topics I myself know I'm sensitive about

But I do think a lot of you exaggerated what I was saying. I didn't ask for Phil to be more open or change his persona entirely, like for example he could become a makeup guru channel (drop that moisturiser brand Phil) and still not reveal anything he doesn't want us to know about himself! And I didn't ask for Dan to disclose his mental health or sexuality, either, just a casual acknowledgment that he deals with both, without going into any detail. Like, again, say "us people with mental health issues" or other more straight-forward stuff like that. But maybe that's just my problem, that I don't pick up on the much more subtle signals very well and struggle to know, once I'm directed to them, whether it's genuine or queerbaiting or joking or whatever. An autistic thing or a I'm-a-massive-fail-and-arsehole thing? Probably the latter.

But I really do love Dan and Phil, I just have a lot of doubts about them and their content and so on. It's not that Phil is creepy himself, but the nature of his channel might suggest that. It's not that Dan is glorifying mental illness, but making it seem more relatable might suggest that. I don't know, I'm an idiot and once again I'm sorry, I hope you can all forgive me for stepping out of line and in the future i'll stay more calm and composed in debate.

Oh crap, I'm like wolfgutscharlie now ://

[relatablemood]

Why are there so many queerbaiting discussions lately? I mean, we’ve always had them but it comes up like once a week lately. Like, I don't personally mind the discussions because a lot of interesting stuff gets brought up but I'm wondering why the discussions are happening so frequently lately? Is it their behaviour towards each other or just the general climate within the phandom?

It also seems like Dan gets away with so much shit on a "maybe". You know, "let's not call Dan out for his glorification of mental illness and how he profits of it by making it his branding because, huh, maybe he's mentally ill himself!". "Let's not call Dan out on queerbaiting becuase, huh, maybe he's in a relationship with Phil!"

These aren’t maybes though. Dan has openly said that he has social anxiety so that question is cleared. Also whether or not Dan is not straight doesn’t hinge on whether or not he’s with Phil. He has made pretty clear that he isn’t straight in the past few weeks/months and who he’s dating or if he’s dating anyone at all doesn’t matter.

I also don't think Phil has backed himself into a corner. It's pretty clear he likes the image he has and the kind of videos he makes and so do I even though I'm closer to his age than the age of many of his fans. Watching Phil is nice, guys. It's relaxing, soothing even, no bad surprises, just nice sweet content to pick you up and I think that's exactly what Phil wants to contribute to Youtube and that's okay. Phil's channel is a bit of a safe space, no unpleasant surprises, and I think people don't appreciate that enough.

Like, to be very honest, all these discussions regarding Phil's age and maturity level freak me out. There is no set age to "grow up" and drop everything you used to like when you were younger. That's not how it works. Can I also say I don't like it when people equate Phil not swearing to Phil being immature? You don't have to swear or be overly edgy or sexual to be mature. Phil has preserved his love for cute stuff and he generally comes across as more soft and wholesome but I don't think that's a sign of immaturity.

Like, from the point of view of my sister, who is lesbian and quite involved in the community, she and a lot of others in the community view Dan and Phil as annoying queerbaiters who don't have the courage to stand up for who they are (or aren't) and rather make constant references to having male attraction that would go unnoticed by casual fans, but applauded by stans and used to keep them interested.

No Full offence but lgbtq people who think like this... nah, get away from me. Queer people should stick together and be understanding of others not wanting to fully come out. I really hate the rethoric that if you won't come out, you must be a coward or whatever. Forcing someone to come out before you accept them as part of the community is wrong, really, really wrong and in my book it's not much better than straight people forcing lgbtq people to stay in the closet. It's the same thing: You're taking away someone's right to decide for themselves how they want to live their lives and you're telling them you won't accept them if they don't do what you think they should do. It needs to stop. Communities are supposed to be safe spaces for all lgbtq people, no strings attached.

Being an activist or helping out the community is not some kind of requirement you have to fulfill when you're lgbtq. Being straight doesn't come with any such strings attached, so why should being queer? Just please let lgbtq people live their lives, guys. If they want to come out, be activists and dedicate their free time to helping the big cause, great, I appreciate that. But if they just want to live their lives in peace then that's fine too. No queer person has any obligation to come out and put their happiness and sometimes their life in danger to help the community out, no famous queer person is obligated to use their platform to do so either. We as a community just really need to accept when other lgbtq people just want to be happy best they can and don't want to get mixed up in any of this. The lgbtq community can be so entitled sometimes and it sucks. But yeah, we're not entitled to any famous lgbtq person's support of our cause or anything just because they happen to be lgbtq.

(I just saw captainspacecoat's post and she literally said what I wanted to say a lot better!)

Lmao, "you can't queerbait if you're queer" - that's your opinion, but not the one everyone in the community accepts.

No, it actually just goes against the very definition of queerbaiting. Queerbaiting is when creators pretend there's something queer happening to get queer people, who are starved for representation, invested in their programme/books/Youtube channels only to do a 180 later on and gaslight their queer audience by going: "What? You silly people, this was never meant to be queer, everyone on my programme is 100% straight!" That's queerbaiting. A real living breathing queer person cannot do that. They just can't.

(I'm sorry I quoted you thrice for this mini rant, gohomohowell. I don't want to attack you, I just don't agree with what you've said.)

I didn't actually know about the social anxiety comment so I'm sorry. But social anxiety isn't the same as depression and he does still make symptoms of depression relatable and something to joke about with his subscribers, which in itself isn't a bad thing unless he's not actually diagnosed.

And I know whether Dan is straight or not doesn't hinge on him being with Phil or not!! I didn't mean queerbaiting in that sense, I was talking strictly about the queerbaiting people say Dan and Phil do together. As someone corrected me, shipbaiting.

But everything else, you're right. I really was talking out of my arse there and I don't know what came over me, looks like I'm the immature one out of them all And don't worry about quoting me three times, I needed to be knocked off my pedestal.

[QuiteFriendly]

I do think Phil not swearing is separate from the rest of the cute persona.

Use of swearwords isn't what makes you an adult. I also think that most (not all, but most) of the "innocent sweet Phil persona" comes from the fans, and not from him. There was a discussion a while back of how people treat Phil as though he is a innocent 12 year old, when it's OBVIOUSLY not the case.

I agree with you both flarequake and 998274. I would say that a lot of adults would think the opposite, that swearing makes you seem less like an adult or less mature, not the other way around.

Phil’s always been making cute faces, but he has also always been cheeky and by using innuendos rather than being explicit he gets away with a lot. I agree that the “innocent sweet Phil persona” comes from the phandom, and I don’t know if it’s because people don’t get it/him or if they just want him to be that person(a). If Dan’s pretty and dark then Phil has to be cute and sunny.

I have had this about thought for a while and I’m not sure I can explain it fully. If I consider the way Phil acts in their gaming vids and the fact that he seems to have turned to cute up a notch I can’t let go of the thought that it is kind of norm breaking. The giggles, his hands over his mouth, that isn’t typical male body language. It isn't really new, but it just seems to be more of it. I can’t help but think that this is Phil’s way of being more himself. Breaking away from the typical male stereotype, especially if you consider the male ideal he seems to have been brought up with, seem to be something he have struggled with. Just another way to look at the cute person(a).

Edit: Yeah, and I agree with alittledizzy on the whole what adult behaviour is thing

[Loafer]

Imma try and make two points as succinctly as I can.

Point 1: on the vday vid and the nature of their relationship: we don't see, and are not meant to see, the non platonic nature of their relationship. We can infer that it is there based on other things (the forever home, for example). There is always a lot of projecting around their relationship, and to me the idea that they were romantically involved but aren't anymore stems from the fact that we have seen the romantic side of their relationship in the past, but we don't anymore. Which, of course not, they aren't just going to rip back the curtains of their private life.

Which brings me to point 2: how... can you expect them to share their whole selves? To not have a YouTube persona? They are very very popular youtubers, they have a huge and dedicated fan base, everything they say is up for debate and scrutinized, and, finally, they are meant to be entertaining, that's what they do for a living. Their entire career and livelihood is at risk if people don't find them entertaining, and they have tried and true #bants, which imo they haven't stuck too to much, which may be annoying to some but liked by others, but it works for the most part.If they suddenly started treating their platform like a diary for all their personal issues it would a) lose them followers, jeopardizing their careers and b) open them up for a world more of criticism, and invite loads of people into these personal parts of them.

Basically I think that if you draw a venn diagram of "dinof and ap personas" and "actual personalities, thoughts and beliefs of Dan and Phil", the first circle would be totally engulfed in the second. I don't think their personas are made up, but they aren't all of them. I think that's fair and to be expected of internet entertainers like them. And as much as their fans look up to them, they aren't, shouldn't, and can't be spokespeople and "representatives" of the plethora of things their fans they fans see in them (whether that's sexuality, mental health issues, relationship advise, issues with their family, or whatever else).

[alittledizzy]

[rizzo]

I don't want to get into a lengthy argument here, but...

"Some people might just be much more functional people that don’t have to deal with all the mental health issues. Until I make changes in my life as I go along, just constantly trying to make things better for who I am, what I’m like, this is just how it works." - Dan Howell (May 2nd, 2017)

He does not need to give us a full diagnosis of his mental illness, nor does he need to sit down and make a coming out video. These aspect of Dan are his private life and he's allowed to keep that information to himself.

But also, my point with that quote is to say that he makes plenty of allusions to things he struggles with or who he is. If you can't pick up on that, that's on you. But, blaming Dan for the phandom filling in blanks based on context just isn't fair.

I also don't think Phil has backed himself into a corner. It's pretty clear he likes the image he has and the kind of videos he makes and so do I even though I'm closer to his age than the age of many of his fans. Watching Phil is nice, guys. It's relaxing, soothing even, no bad surprises, just nice sweet content to pick you up and I think that's exactly what Phil wants to contribute to Youtube and that's okay. Phil's channel is a bit of a safe space, no unpleasant surprises, and I think people don't appreciate that enough.

Like, to be very honest, all these discussions regarding Phil's age and maturity level freak me out. There is no set age to "grow up" and drop everything you used to like when you were younger. That's not how it works. Can I also say I don't like it when people equate Phil not swearing to Phil being immature? You don't have to swear or be overly edgy or sexual to be mature. Phil has preserved his love for cute stuff and he generally comes across as more soft and wholesome but I don't think that's a sign of immaturity.

Regarding Phil, I thoroughly agree with this. And much like Dan, we also don't know Phil. We know Phil's videos and Phil's liveshows and Phil's meet and greets. Phil has a life that isn't content-creation, where - call me crazy - he might swear. He might make dirty jokes. Phil is not 100% that which is on video. Nobody is.

It all just comes down to the same thing: I think folks are forgetting that Dan and Phil are humans with private lives. Sure, YouTube is an entertainment platform based on personal connection, but they're giving you what they want you to see. You can decide whether to accept that or not, but they're not obligated to open up any further if they don't want to.

Take the time to listen to them, instead of yelling over them, and maybe you'll find that there's nuance you were missing before.

[malday]

[offtopic]

I think qpr's aren't appreciated enough! I think even if you're not ace/aro it's completely plausible to have a qpr as well right? It always feel constricting to have a relationship categorised as romantic or platonic, because there are definitely more variations than that!

I think the boys from Superfruit are a good example of a great and close friendship between two queer people, if you are looking for one.

Not really adding anything to the discussion because on mobile it's hard to write a long response..just wanted to say that Scott and Mitch are very very far from being a queer platonic relationship example. They literally dated and still imply to this day that they kiss and have sex. Literally the title song of their new EP is about their relationship being undefined.

Wait is this off-topic I'm not sure

yes this counts as offtopic.

I knew they dated in the past but i thought they considered themselves just friends now, even if they kiss etc.. But i admit i don't really follow them, so thanks for the info .[/offtopic]

I'm starting a new conspiracy theory and that is deppy are going to be on one of those home remodeling shows and it's set to air in October.

That would be the best and would make a lot of people happy, get on it deps!

[bookfiend]

I'm starting a new conspiracy theory and that is deppy are going to be on one of those home remodeling shows and it's set to air in October.

That would be the best and would make a lot of people happy, get on it deps!

OMG could you imagine those two on a home renovation show, that would be hilarious.
They were bad enough remodelling a Sims house. Dan trying to overspend their money and Phil trying to make sure every room in the house has a feature wall. I would watch the heck out of that show.

Thank you hello9217 for the amazing mental image

[Sakura Selfie]

Phil not swearing makes sense to me as an adult, I only swear casually around my friends and family (and even then it's usually to express annoyance) and absolutely 100% do not swear in my workplace I seriously think there's colleagues who haven't heard me swear at all. Dans mental health issues have been discussed by people far more eloquently than myself but I think it's worth mentioning no one has the right to armchair diagnose him (or not as the case may be) he has shared as much as he is content to share, and a lot of people do choose to make jokes out of dark material and there will always be people offended by it purely because it's impossible to please everyone all of the time. To the person who asked why the queer/shipbating issue keeps coming up more and more lately I'd guess it because they're slowly showing us more and more of themselves and if you give people an inch they'll want to take a mile.